Libelula Thread

[Joaquin Suave]

1

[FusoFG]

looks cool!

any ideas about length, width and height of the box?

rigid or flexible mount?

[Colorado Ron]

H O L Y C R A P !!!!!!:bowdown:

Im drooling as we speak! My Pinz doesnt feel adequate anymore!

Please tell me your going to mount a couple of bikes on the back!:bike_rider:

[gjackson]

Wow. What is the base truck? Powerplant? Drivetrain? That is pretty darn cool.

Details please!

cheers

[Colorado Ron]

Some things in life just dont seem fair.:smilies27 LOL!

[jnelson4x4taco]

In a word...... AWESOME!!!!!

At my young age of 21 i dont see something like this in my near future but boy do i love the technology, innovation, ingenuity and passion involved in a project likie this.

Cant wait to follow along with the progress!!!

[dhackney]

Fantastic chassis platform!

Any initial projections on total GVW?

What is the chassis GVWR? Axle ratings?

[blupaddler]

Jack...
Very nice.

Great to see you "working" on this once again.

Couple of Q's
Where are the other two?
What is going in the box behind the cab? Outboard engine? Boat? Will your surf toys fit?
Will you be able to access the living quarters from the cab area?
Does it require a special class liscense?

What will Casa Azul do when you are done? Does she get jealous seeing you with someone else?

Sorry, sooooo many questions.

:smiley_drive:

(we need a surfn' smilie)

[gjackson]

Very cool. That is one amazing platform!

cheers

[Robthebrit]

That is awesome and you should not need a commercial license if you keep the registered gross weight under 26,000 pounds. Even if the trucks gross is higher than 26,000 you can register it lower to avoid the commercial restrictions. I would not increase the weight, its puts you on questionable legal ground if you are higher than the plated gross and you'll end up paying a lot more in weight fees. If I was registering that, I would figure out how heavy the final truck is going to be when all my stuff is in it and register it at something little higher. The weight fees are brutal (for California 26,000 pounds is around $600 a year in addition to normal registration fees, others states use similar fees for commercial/heavy vehicles).

CTIS is more of a problem than a helper, sure you can air down and air up easily and that is really nice, but typically the system is not reliable and I wound not want it on an expedition vehicle. Remember you have to get air through the hub and there are lots of seals, if one of these seals goes your tires go down, on most systems the other tire on the same axle will also go flat because they are linked via the CTIS system. With a truck that heavy on uneven terrain there is a good chance you'll pull the bead off if the tire goes completely flat and ratchet strap is not going to re-seat it. A similar problem occurs when you have a flat, in a linked system the other side also goes flat.

Rob

[Blair G]

That is awesome and you should not need a commercial license if you keep the registered gross weight under 26,000 pounds. Even if the trucks gross is higher than 26,000 you can register it lower to avoid the commercial restrictions. I would not increase the weight, its puts you on questionable legal ground if you are higher than the plated gross and you'll end up paying a lot more in weight fees. If I was registering that, I would figure out how heavy the final truck is going to be when all my stuff is in it and register it at something little higher. The weight fees are brutal (for California 26,000 pounds is around $600 a year in addition to normal registration fees, others states use similar fees for commercial/heavy vehicles).

CTIS is more of a problem than a helper, sure you can air down and air up easily and that is really nice, but typically the system is not reliable and I wound not want it on an expedition vehicle. Remember you have to get air through the hub and there are lots of seals, if one of these seals goes your tires go down, on most systems the other tire on the same axle will also go flat because they are linked via the CTIS system. With a truck that heavy on uneven terrain there is a good chance you'll pull the bead off if the tire goes completely flat and ratchet strap is not going to re-seat it. A similar problem occurs when you have a flat, in a linked system the other side also goes flat.

Rob

Hi Rob,
Actually Jack would not have to register it as a commercial vehicle. With a fixed camper it would considered a motorhome.
Blar

[Robthebrit]

Blair, you are correct, I never realized he was putting a box on the back. Just stay under 26,000 and you'll be good on your car license. Get your class B and your good for anything.

I hear you on the mil spec CTIS but I would still disable it if I was going out of the US to remote areas, its such a critical failure point, getting and fitting the parts in the field would be not something I would want to think about. All I have ever heard is nightmares and I personally don't think it buys much unless you are in a rush.

My opinion of course, if you like it, keep it!

[CLynn85]

I cut up Franky and just kept the cab, transfer-case, & front axle.




Franky? You mean there was another one????

[FusoFG]

The Tag sayz 18,961 lbs dry & 23,961 fully loaded.

Sorry but I don't understand dry and fully loaded? Is that curb weight? Is that what she weighs with the current bed installed?

Is the payload only 5000 lbs?

What is the gvwr? and what is the payload?

[BajaTaco]

Great to see you "working" on this once again.




Here, here!! I second that. Awesome "thumbnail" you have there.

BTW, regarding the dual trucks/women...

... I bet the new truck won't have the interior decorated even half as cool as Casa...

:peepwall:

[charlieaarons]

If comparison with the FMTVs is any guide, the load capacity of only 2.5 tons is grossly under-rated. Certainly the tires can take a lot more. My U500 has 395s and it has a 33,000 lb gvw. FMTVs are sprung relatively softly, yours may be similar. If you wish to overload it you might consider beefing the rear springs.
I love my CTIS system although admittedly it has leaked about 2 psi/day in front since new. Also, bead loacks WILL take care of bead rolling at low psi. Incredibly, due to a computer code deletion, Mercedes left bead locks out of my wheels when they mfg'd my U500. I de-beaded the fronts in Morocco at 14 psi in mud but the rears stayed up at 20 psi. They are going to install the beadlocks when I am re-united with the truck in April.
Lastly, regarding commercial drivers licenses, my state anyway excepts drivers of trucks >26K if the truck is registered as a motorhome. I doubt you'll ever get weighed if it has a camper body on the back.

Charlie

[CornDog]

Are those axles the Rockwell 2.5 ton toploaders? I can't really tell from the pic. Just curious, cause two 2.5 ton axles is only 5 tons... and with a GVW of ~24,000... how does that work? Either way, I would love to get my hands on some of those! (as soon a I get a get something to put them on :rolleyes:!)
Also, a lot of folks here don't seem to like the CTIS... I can see the rim's got some kind of a guard (?) over what I'm guessing is the hose, how tough would it be to rig up a dis-connectable system on the rim itself (like a normal airhose setup)? i.e., if the system does leak somewhere in the lines, you just un-plug the tire from the system. Then, if the tire had already gone flat, just repressurize seperate from the CTIS?
...
or would that just be way too much of a pain in the @#$?

all in all, A VERY sweet ride!

[CornDog]

...I can see the rim's got some kind of a guard (?) over what I'm guessing is the hose...

This is what I was curious about...

[CornDog]

...It is one of 3 made! The design is a "knock-off" of the military Kamaz...


When was it made? I know Kama3 has only been doing off-road trucks since the late '80s



The motor is a Cummins 6CTA stock with 225hp. It will output about 450hp with 1300 ftlbs of torque after my motor guru is done with it.

the trani is an Allison 3070 with intergrel transfer-case with PTO and massive trani-cooler, 7-speed full time 4x4.


If you don't mind my asking, what is he going to do the get 1300 ftlbs out of a Cummins 6C (I'm assuming it's the 8.3)? I've never seen one rated at over 1000 ftlbs

Also, all I know about the torque ratings on the Allison 3070 is that it's the standard military 5 ton tranny usually used with the 658 ftlbs Cummins NHC-250. And I do know the All-3000 is only rated up to 1200 ftlbs, so you might want to look into the torque limits before you up the power that much on your engine.

Again, an AWESOME project! Looking forward to getting some more details!

[CornDog]

Sorry it me so long to reply, I'm swamped with work these days. ...As far as progress on Libelula goes...Its going to be a while! I'm doing a HUGE project for a client and doubt I'll see the light of day this year.

You have my sympathies!
I know how that goes, I'm in the middle of my MBA and most of the time I have a tough time justifying even checking up here.



Thought the 6CTA can achieve WELL over 450HP in marine applications...The 3070 is rated to 300HP and "the people in the know" say that your begging for trouble if you try to push that #.

Gotcha

I hadn't looked into the marine aplications of the 6C. I'd alway heard they were tweaked in such a way that they didn't really work well on the road.
Ya live and learn!

If you wanted to repower and were looking for another tranny, I've heard good things about the Eaton/Fuller T14607. Although a used/refab will run you about $2500~3000
Like I said, I'm thinking of a project along the same lines as Libelula so keep us posted on what you decide.

[Bob_Sheaves]

Some historical bits on that vehicle....

1. CTIS. That Eaton system is the porrest system we tested at MVO but they were the "cheepest" so they were the selected for the prototypes. They have 2 failure points-changing a tire requires opening up the air passage thru the hub reduction unoit and sand will EASILY contaminate the gearset causing about 2200.00 damage to that planetary wheelend. The second failure mode is the low flow compared to the Labinal system (no longer available in the US). The original requirements was a 1 inch dia hole in the sidewall, 15psi internal pressure for 30 miles. the Eaton failed that test and was never corrected.

2. Depending on the mil serial number, that could be one of the 5 durability trucks built. I do not have the numbers with me (I am not at home in Detroit at this time) but we actually built 7 vehicles-not all were given to the military-we kept 2 for durability testing and 2 for fitment, while one had a frame crack during testing, TTC opted to replace that truck with one of our durability trucks. That could be tha vehicle. If so, the engine was considerable over 300hp as speced for TAACOM (the Marines actually did not order them-the FMTV program was through the Army's TAACOM (Tank And Automotive COMmand) group in Warren MI. IIRC, one of the durability trucks had a 425hp 6CTAA8.3 and the other had a 375hp 6CTAA8.3. Both were over 1100lb/ft of torque, and before anyone asks, yes we broke 17 transmissions in them (the Allison "World" was just being developed at the time and it was, at best, a poor copy of the ZF Ecomat).

3. The payload, due to the mobility requirements was indeed 2.5 tons for the 4x4.

I will add more as I remember what was going on.....

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

[Bob_Sheaves]

WOW, This is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Cool!

I've learned more in your last post than I since I bought it in December of 2004! Previously the most info I could find was from Janes!

I know it was Marine Corp because it came from Barstow. Just tested at 29Palms (at least that is the last post I was at rep'ing GM/MVO on the program for field service), TAACOM still "owned" them.
Hey, You guys did a GREAT job! Just one look at the truck and one could see that it would cost over $1m to build it from scratch. Actually about $12.2M LOL
Is there any truth to the rumor that the design was based off the Kamaz? None whatsoever. I used the HEMTT (GM/MVO had the contract to find out why the HEMTT was breaking it's 36K lb front axles from TAACOM) as the baseline and corrected several human factors problems with the HEMTT.
Also, are you OK if I PM you with some more questions?Not a problem-at your convenience.

Best as always,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

[Grim Reaper]

Franky? You mean there was another one????
Was Franky posted on one of the military forums 505 or something like that? I seem to recall running across a similar build on one of those sites.

[66Landy]

Your new project is certainly amazing, but my vote will go to Casa Azul for the whimsy factor. I just absolutely love the Studebaker (correct?) implanted in her brow! Frankly, I can't see why you would go with hardwood and corian for the Libelula's interior. Why be grown up when you can have fun instead!

[Rockcrawler]

Hey Jack,

Just checking in on the progress on your latest toy... I saw Casa Azul last night on the travel channel... RV Crazy. Unfortunately they didn't mention the 8 at all... :) I did see it trailing dutifully behind Casa Azul.

Interesting show!

[slosurfer]

Hey Jack, I just discovered that you had this thread on Libelula. Glad to hear that you have been able to work on it some. I feel honored that I have got to see her and some of your drawings.:arabia: I want to be there when you get the tranny fixed and go test her on the dunes.

[blupaddler]

The net results will be "Dakar" worthy though.

Thus I'm going to be having a yardsale soon. I'll give Expo folks first dibs! I'll post a link on my site soon.

The scary fact is...The I'll be spending close to $250K building Libelula & I'll be NEEDING to sell off a lot of my other toys (possibly even Casa Azul) to afford the project.




So... Did Allison decide to help out with the Tranny issue? Or is it all "self-sponsored?"


Yard sale? Hmmm.
















DON'T SELL Casa Azul!!!
Although, an 80 would probably be really nice behind her.

Take care, have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[milo12]

Thats great news!!! Tell me the details over an adult beverage tonight if you come downtown to our favorite watering hole.

[TACODOC]

This is a build that I'll be watching!!! :Astrologist:

[blupaddler]

:wings: :wings: :wings:

Congrats Jack!
I remember talking to you regarding some of the issues. Glad they are resolved and she is moving again.














When do I get to go for a ride?

[Lynn]

Joaquin,

Isn't the frame flex going to be considerably different once the weight of the camper is involved? i.e. more down force on the three corners not being lifted?

Would it be better to put some sort of approximated load on the frame before doing this flex test?

Just curious. You know more about this stuff than I do. To date, I've built a total of 0 expedition campers. ;)

Addited: I like the approach that Darrin Fink took, using the water tank to approximate the added weight:

http://www.ruf-inc.com/subframe-test-2.jpg

However, it seems to me that the weight should be slightly ahead of the pivot points, rather than centered over the rear points as he did. i.e. If the truck is designed for a 60/40 weight distribution, that is what I would strive to simulate.

If you picture a geometric plane defined by the frame rails, when the left rear corner is lifted (as in you picture above), the plane is going to 'fold' along a line that runs diagonally from left front to right rear. It seems to me that the downforce should be located along this line to give the proper left/front - right/rear distribution.

Maybe I'm all wet. Feel free to educate me here.

[Octamog]

(think lesbian nightclub)

:Wow1:

:jump:

:chowtime:

[slosurfer]

:wings: that's great that she's running! I can't wait to get back out there and see you test drive her.

How much eucalyptis debris did you have in your yard after that last round of storms?

[Lynn]

Wow, Joaquin, I feel for you, but am sure impressed with your skills and dedication!

This is going to be one outstanding rig.

Are you planning on 'demilitarizing' the appearance? I know you have participated in several 'border crossing' discussions regarding military-looking vehicles, and while Libby isn't legally restricted, I'm wondering if you are concerned about her appearance.

Maybe this time you can graft an old VDub on top, like a hippymobile ;). Yeah, that's the ticket, a Westy with the pop-top, so you have the world's only three story Expo vehicle!

[Lynn]

Ya wanna take it to Mexico, ya say? Howz this...

Multi-color gaudy paint, a row of dingle balls above the windshield, a plastic 'Mother Mary' on the dash, canvas over the camper box...

Go native, I say!

[Lynn]

Joaquin,


With Libby's low cab-forward design, your 'thumbnail' reminds me of a 'more reasonably sized' version of my ultimate dream rig, ActionMobil's Desert Challenger:

http://www.actionmobil.com/page18/page18_files/page15-1002-full.jpg

[jesusgatos]

Hi Steve-

I'm not sure if you remember me, but I called you a a couple of years ago and we talked about building these type of vehicles. I just purchased an M109 that I'm going to start converting into a motorhome that I'm going to be living in fulltime, and I'd like to know what type of kitchen appliances, water systems, capacities, etc. you're building into Libby. I'm not on a $250,000 budget, but I'd like to know where I should spend money and what I can get away without.

[Lynn]

Ya know, I was jst thinking of looking up this thread and asking for an update...

And here it is as a new post!

So, what's up? any progress pix to post up?

[kerry]

I thought a recent post showing it parked next to a Mog indicated that not much progress had been made yet??

[jesusgatos]

I have no clue who steve is...
You will be better off picking other peoples brains. I make my living designing & developing mechanical devices for people, so I'm not inclined to share my research....Unless I'm on retainer.
Sorry, my mistake. I'm pretty bad with names, and I must have mis-remembered yours. I was only asking for some general input regarding some of the generic components that I'm going to need to purchase to build my conversion. I thought since you're posting information about your vehicles on a forum like this, that you'd be a little bit more open to questions. I won't bother you again.

[Jim_Morrison]

any updates