Getting "primed" for winter

[kcowyo]

The snow has started and the throttle thumb is getting twitchy. How do you get some relief?

Sledporn baby! (http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/content/topsnow.wmv) (totally safe for work badass 2 min. video, with sound)

Following a trip to Death Valley later this month, the camper comes off the truck for the winter and the trailer gets hooked up. I'll be riding my customized Polaris 800cc with a Genesis motor, PSI big bore kit, M10 suspension with Ohlin shocks, blah, blah, blah....

Any other sledheads on here?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v142/kcowyo/loadedup.jpg

[Ursidae69]

I've never ridden one before, they look fun. :wavey:

[articulate]

Hmm! I could be convinced to give this a shot.

[bigreen505]

Not really, just use 'em to haul ski stuff around, but that just means we need a lot of power and traction. That sounds like a super cool machine you've got there!

Awesome video!

[kcowyo]

Oh Dave, my two-board riding, thread swerving good man..... I assure you I am not offended by you granola eating, hippy backcountry skiing types at all! :wavey:

Before, and after we were married the Mrs. used to feel the same way about snowmobiles. She quickly changed her tune when I threw her and her tele's on the back and ran her to the top of the mountain so she could ski on her knee all the way back down. She didn't take up sleds, but she got a lot more bang for her buck skiing when I could shuttle her to the top.

Skiers vs. snowmobilers is a hot topic in Wyoming, especially in Yellowstone. We are fortunate in this county and the next one over to have two world class Nordic trail systems, completely seperate from the snowmobile trails. The US Olympic X country team actually trains over the mountain in Pinedale. We were not so fortunate to have that in Lake City, CO. But for the most part it was rare to see a X country skier more than a couple of miles from the parking lot, leaving gobs of San Juan high country for the sledheads to ride.

I don't snowmobile in Yellowstone, and won't, but I have issues with skiers attempting to limit how many snowmobiles can enter the park because the skiers don't like the noise and smell. Their protests are crippling the winter economy of towns like Cody and West Yellowstone, just so skiers can have the right to enjoy OUR national park, the way they want and to hell with everyone else. Hey, it's my park too ya know?

Oh, and after two years of reduced numbers of sleds allowed in the park, (by a federal judge in DC who probably couldn't find Wyoming on a map, nor has ever likely been to Yellowstone) there is no conclusive proof that the air quality is any better than when an unlimited numbers of sleds were allowed in the park. And only government mandated 4 stroke "clean machines" have been allowed in the park the last 2 seasons, not the 2 stroke stink bombs like I ride. So who's zooming who?

If skiers brought in 1/2 of the revenue to West Yellowstone that snowmobiles do, that would be one thing. But they don't. They come down from Bozeman or over from Idaho Falls in their Subarus with their Polartec on, munching on granola and power bars they brought from home, ski for a couple of hours and go home. The arrogance of one group trying to dictate the "proper use" of a national park to another group is offensive at best, laughable at worst.

But like you said Dave, "I'm sure my outlook is limited by the negative experiences I've had." ;)

Hope I didn't offend.... Peace!

[pskhaat]

munching on...power bars
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to eat a power bar outside in the winter? or much worse when skiing? Those from Montana are so out of touch!

It's like the anti-smoking law here in AZ now. I theoretically don't agree with banning smoking in private establishments, but it suits my needs and desires so well to not have the Kool cougher giving my and my family an atmosphere of L.A. when eating.

I'm both pinhead by nature and alpinist by nurture, no flat nordy here, so I don't have any particular complaints against them in Yellowstone. I can't figure out why I can't bring my dog to a National Park as to disrupt wildlife but I could bring in a sled?

[devinsixtyseven]

How many people do you (collective you) know who do both (ski/ride/snowmobile)? being from alaska, i would get early and late season tracks at altitude, with highway-like trails groomed by the tracks of many a snowmachine.

I am proficient with both skate and classical xc ski techniques to a level most people only see on television, and is usually only used by people wearing numbers (I used to)...so frankly, I really appreciate a good, solid groomer where I can get a long glide and consistent stability throughout a kick. Snowmobile/track-only access roads are a boon to xc skiers with a strong urge to drop the hammer...it's impossible to skate in powder, and waxing classical skis for powder or active precipitation can be anywhere from useless to a nightmare, and it's still a slogfest--better to use snowshoes, since you'll only be "walking on skis" anyway, not skiing.

In my opinion it comes down to respect for nature and another guy's lifestyle. While a snowmobile will never run as clean and quiet as a pair of skis, they can run clean-er and quiet-er than you might believe from the antics I've seen and heard from the naysayers over the years--snowmobiles are frequently used on xc ski trails for maintenance, emergencies, and race support, and I've never heard anyone at an established xc ski area complain about "those darn snowmobilers". Frankly imho snowmobiles make a lot less noise and pollution than the mouths of some of their detractors over the years!

It's not an "issue" that's limited to winter use...mountain bikes are subject to the same "lifestyle" prejudice. When on a multi-use trail, I know who to watch out for when I'm on the bike, sorry to say but the stereotypes are often correct...and now and then I hear quiet muttered remarks like "bikes aren't supposed to be here" when I'm on an established multi-use corridor. Well, frankly, hikers with a bad attitude shouldn't be there either, or anyone else who fails to enjoy the beauty of the outdoors or intentionally bypasses an opportunity to share a friendly conversation with another human being, or worse yet, abuses their position either by crying "safety foul" at anything with wheels, or careening past hikers, horses, dogs and wildlife with no regard for their surroundings...or even something as simple as walking, sitting, snowshoeing or sledding (seen it many times) on set classical xc tracks, not cleaning up after dogs, standing around in the middle of the trail when others (regardless of "motivation") are trying to get by...share the frickin' trail, regardless your mode of transportation. Frankly what really galls me are people who drive their car to the trail, tell everyone with an engine to keep off, then expect someone with an engine to deliver food, water, supplies, warm bedding, emergency support, or directions when they're out in the middle of nowhere on a pair of skis.

I really think the perceived impact of bicycles and vehicles is more dependent on the amount of respect one person has for another's lifestyle or interests. I wish more people within the overall outdoor sport/adventure/touring community had the same attitude I've seen here at the Portal.

On a completely different but slightly related note, I can't wait for Breck and Devil's Thumb to open their trails...two of my favorite xc ski areas, outside of Lillehammer and Anchorage. Anyone who would like to cruise around on skinny skis, or learn how (not hard to learn!), is welcome to join me :D.

-Sean

[bigreen505]

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to eat a power bar outside in the winter? or much worse when skiing?

Quite easy. Before you leave, cut the bar into 1/4" squares and put them in a ziplock bag in your pocket. Periodically put a couple in your mouth and eat them like a starburst. Or if you have a stale one, just throw it against the wall and put the pieces in a bag.

PowerBar -- Recommended by nine out of ten dentists for backcountry tooth removal.

[Mlachica]

wow, that was intense...I LIKE IT

I went on a guided snowmobile guided tour in Mammoth a few years ago and I had a BLAST. The guide knew I was looking for an adrenaline rush so we ended up playing cat and mouse. I've been dying to go back eversince...

[Ursidae69]

I love when KC's threads go downhill! :elkgrin: J/k. Since it is getting a little political, here is my 2 cents. I think we all can coexist, but the snowmobilers aught to not be in designated wilderness areas. I assume that is already the case? Around here the wilderness areas restrict motorized access, foot and horse only. I appreciate that.

The Yellowstone thing always amused me, during the winter when many of the critters have migrated out or are hibernating, we restrict snowmobiles, yet during the summer there are so many RVs that it is one big parking lot.

Where is Roseann, this is turning into a land-use issue we can discuss! :wavey:

Any of the CO folks ever take the snowmobile trip across Independence Pass in the winter? I have always wanted to do that.

[kcowyo]

I love when KC's threads go downhill! :elkgrin:

Hey downhill, cross country, telemark....it's all good as long as you're getting out there! :victory:

And Dave does make quite the case for backcountry skiing when he speaks of the deep, unspoiled fluffy joy at the end. Even if his method of reaching it does reveal a certain masochistic side of his personality!

The small amount of sleds in winter vs. the sheer masses of vehicles in the summer has long been an argument of mine. Our national parks are being loved to death but let's not set up one small group of recreationalists to take the blame.

In Yellowstone you may only ride on designated trails which are mostly the main roads through the park. The speed limit for snowmobiles in the park is 25mph everywhere. The rules are virtually the same either season. Stay on the road, don't approach the animals and stay under the speed limit.

Every year there will be a couple of rednecks who go off the trail and it always gets press. A couple of yayhoos screw it up for everyone. Just like during hunting season when someone will "wander" into the parks boundaries and shoot an elk. Where these people come from, who show no respect for the majesty of Yellowstone, and how they justify in their peabrains their disrespect is just beyond me.

So how about we turn this sinking ship around (like the Dems in the Senate) and perhaps instead get some snow updates from various states and provinces or hear your favorite winter activity plans? I'd much rather talk about deep, unspoiled fluffy joy than politics.

:beer:

[pskhaat]

get some snow updates from various states

Right when I thought I could join along too! I'm out of that game though, 90 degrees F here today :(

That said, wanna take the oldest boy skiing for his first time in the CO front range over Thanksgiving, so eager to hear.

[Ursidae69]

instead get some snow updates from various states and provinces or hear your favorite winter activity plans?
:beer:

No snow in northern NM yet. I plan to take snowboarding lessons this winter. I see a trip to Wolf Creek in my future. :ylsmoke:

[pskhaat]

...Before you leave, cut the bar into 1/4" squares and put them in a ziplock bag in your pocket

Only you Bill would have a solution to the Power Bar Problem :costumed-smiley-007 while the rest of us are stuffing 'em as the sole in our ski boots trying to get just a single stinking bite.

I say you make a presentation of your solution, and set up on of these (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3056)for those in Montana...actually come to think of it, does anyone in Montana actually know what Power Bars are yet? (trying not to be a hater).

[kcowyo]

Hate on Montana all you want. I live in Wyoming.....KCO in WYO.....Hello? :shakin:

And yeah, how 'bout Bill and his million dollar starburst-bite-size-powerbar idea? Too funny!

[bigreen505]

I think the idea may have come from friend of mine when he was sponsored by PowerBar in the early '90s. Not sure though.

Scott, I remember considering chopping them up to be a necessity after I nearly removed all the teeth on the left side of my face in one go while riding up a lift in Taos with Gooch after one of the New Mexico race series. However, right now I still have many boxes of PowerBar Harvest bars in my basement and they stay pliable enough at low temps to break pieces off.

[devinsixtyseven]

Those aren't exactly the places I'm talking about, groomed xc trails. I hump my sorry butt uphill in the backcountry for the deep, unspoiled fluffy joy at the end.

This my current b/c hardware (185mm Tua Nitrogens w/ G3 Targas):

very nice :D. i have a pair of tele boards, but havent been out on them in quite a while...four years, i think, or roughly when i started snowboarding. with snowshoes, perhaps i could get some backcountry tracks on the board other than the drive-up areas like berthoud and loveland passes.

in anchorage, the hike up second and third peaks was always good for a round of kneebender turns...and in norway, the best on the hill were usually on tele skis...i saw a salomon ad on tv over there that showed a guy making backcountry tele turns with a low profile backpack and a single, long, carved diamond-patterned wooden staff...whatever tree produces that diamond shape, i dont know offhand. willow? anyway...i was so impressed i took a bo staff up to the ski hill and promptly left it three feet deep in the snow, quite a ways behind, the first time i planted for a turn. i guess there was more to it :D.

last time i was in colorado, i used to go up with a group of friends, i was on the tele boards, one guy on d/h skis, and a girl on a snowboard. made for an interesting (good interesting) time since everyone's skills and ideal terrain were slightly different, but we were still able to run as a group.

uh...sorry for the drama up there...i guess it's kind of a heated issue, particularly since i get the feeling many people on the forums here find themselves on either side of the fence depending on what they pull out of the garage any given afternoon :D.

(how does the dog get through the powder?)

-sean

[bigreen505]

A lot of jumping (imagine a dolphin!). Mostly he stays in the skin track when he can, but if we're going to do a lot of breaking new trail I'll sometimes leave him at home. He's getting to be an older pup (about 8 or 9 now) and all that deep powder wears him down.


A little dolphin, a lilttle Bugs Bunny. IMO, doggie boots are a must. They give extra floatation and prevent ice balls from building up between the toes.



A couple yahoos screw it up for everyone

Hey Dave, you know how the Seven Sisters on Loveland Pass are closed and skiing them is beyond illegal? Sorry about that.


In fact there should be a small posse of Rocky Mountain ExPo members at Loveland Saturday. Well, OK, maybe as many as 3. Anyway, let me know if I should look for you. I'm not hard to find, black helmet, dark blue Scarpa T2 boots, 186 Dynastar skis mounted with orange Voile bindings, gray pants, probably black Arc'teryx soft shell. I ski freeheel and would be the one falling a lot. I typically do laps under Chair 6.

It may be Sunday for me, not sure about Sat. I'm usually making laps on 1 or trying to learn to ski on chair 2.

[kcowyo]

Hmmm, I've heard about them 'bilers up in Yellowstone, what with the gas masks the rangers claim they have to wear and all....

The west gate entrance in the early morning is horrid. I wouldn't want to work that gate. There will be hundreds of sleds idling, belching smoke all bunched up at the gate waiting to get in. It's like trying to thread a needle with a football. But once you do get through, there are 2.2 million acres to explore. The haze at the gate is awful, but it does not cover the entire park as some would like the general populace to believe.

For the most part, I'm like Capt. Willard, "I love the smell of two strokes in the morning!" While I was guiding in Lake City, every morning at 7am I would have to get one or two 6 place trailers full of sleds fired up to make sure they ran before heading up Slumgullion Pass. By the time I got the last one started I would be enveloped and nearly invisible in a cloud of smoke. I loved it but that was only 6 or 12 sleds. Dealing with hundreds in a concentrated area would be overwhelming.

So I am not unsympathetic to the rangers, I just want the overall picture of snowmobiling painted correctly and not embellished by well meaning but uninformed lawmakers back east. Oh, and you can no longer sled in Yellowstone without a guide. All entrants to the park must be with a licensed guide. This keeps illegal speeds, going off trail and harrassment of wildlife to a minimum.

So Dave and Bill, do you guys have any tips for taking your camera with you out in the snow? I always bring my camera but usually leave it in the truck because the cold seems to kill the batteries so quickly plus I'm afraid of pulling it out and dropping it in the snow and it getting wet or worse. I would love to get some pics and video when I go out. Space and weight isn't nearly the issue for me as it is for someone on skis, some I'm thinking you must have a good solution. I just have to figure out the best way to keep it warm and dry.

Any suggestions? :confused:

[18seeds]

Complete Sledhead here. I am a huge fan of the 4-stroke also (kind of hippie friendly) Just got an 06 Yamaha RS Vector Mtn Sled. I do a tone of backcountry skiing with it.

Sled Skiing Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAv7SPaoKg0)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g305/18seeds/paintwindshield.jpg

[Dave]

perhaps instead get some snow updates from various states and provinces or hear your favorite winter activity plans?

70+ freaking degrees here in St. Louis today. :(

Favorite winter activity: Standing in waist high ice cold water with a box of shells and my 1300.

http://www.ilikecoconuts.com/gallery/d/4169-4/DSCN2911.jpg

[HongerVenture]

I really think the perceived impact of bicycles and vehicles is more dependent on the amount of respect one person has for another's lifestyle or interests. I wish more people within the overall outdoor sport/adventure/touring community had the same attitude I've seen here at the Portal.

-Sean

Sean, this was put SO WELL! I love that first sentence. I think you can take out bicycles and vehicles and "fill-in-the-blank" with just about any activity/vehicle/mode of recreation. It truly comes down to the amount of respect one person has for another's lifestyle.

Again, outstanding quote! :jumping:

As for snowmobiling... never tried it but have always wanted to. Indiana doesn't get enough snow for me to even remotely consider purchasing one though. Please get some pictures this winter KC and keep us posted.

The video is wicked-cool.

Joel

[kcowyo]

Complete Sledhead here. I am a huge fan of the 4-stroke also (kind of hippie friendly) Just got an 06 Yamaha RS Vector Mtn Sled. I do a tone of backcountry skiing with it.



That was a great video! I forgot about running my knuckle dragging snowboarding buddies to the top too. Those lazy punks! So who's Snocat was that running shuttle?

I certainly don't do any mega jumps and inverts like in the vid I posted, but I have been known to launch off a few cornices and set off a few avalanches. The area above Capitol City, en route to Engineer Pass is full of chutes. We'd ride up there often to break off a few slides. Better for us to do it intentionally, rather than some poor unsuspecting sledder or skier getting swept away.

I'm set up primarily for steep & deep. Hillclimbs and highmarking are my thing. I haven't had a chance to ride a 4 stroke yet. Care to share your impressions vs. the old 2 stroke? I really like the Yamaha's. If Polaris went belly up, I'd be on a Yamaha over an Artic Cat. My main riding partner just converted from a Ski Doo Summit to a Polaris RMK and seems happier.

[kcowyo]

Favorite winter activity: Standing in waist high ice cold water with a box of shells and my 1300.


OK, I think Dave in St. Louis has a bigger masochistic streak than DaveinDenver. I mean, at least skiing, snowmobiling and snowshoeing you're moving constantly and working up a sweat. However we don't get to kill anything so there is that as a bonus I guess.

So DinD, any special camera case or anything else? I'm all digital now although I wouldn't have thought of film becoming more brittle. Good tip. Same on the condensation. I think the fear of numb fingers dropping it in a snowbank and getting it wet is what causes me to leave the camera in the truck. Dead batteries are just inconvenient but it would be nice to figure out a way to keep them from the cold.

I can keep the camera in my backpack and maybe my batteries in an inside chest pocket to keep them warm I suppose.... Maybe I should surf over to Warren Miller's site for snow shooting tips too. We just need some more snow now!

[Dave]

OK, I think Dave in St. Louis has a bigger masochistic streak than DaveinDenver. I mean, at least skiing, snowmobiling and snowshoeing you're moving constantly and working up a sweat. However we don't get to kill anything so there is that as a bonus I guess.

I don't care how cold it is, walking around in waist high (or deeper) water wearing 5mm neoprene waders and 900 layers of clothing will force a sweat pretty quick. ;)

[bigreen505]

It's a slide path that CDOT blasts, but I hadn't realized that it was explicitly illegal to ski it.

Yeah some yahoos who I won't name put in about 35 runs on it one year and darn near turned it into a bump run. Forest Service and CDOT got mad and closed it. I think the minimum fine is $1,000 and 30 days in jail.

[bigreen505]

So Dave and Bill, do you guys have any tips for taking your camera with you out in the snow?

Dave's answer is a great one and I really like those cameras. A Nikon FM (by FM I include FM, FM2, FM3, FE, FE2, FM10 and FE10), F3, F100 and N80 on the film side, or D70, D80 or D200 on the digital side make great backcountry cameras for the weight and size as much as anything else. That camera, along with a couple prime lenses or a 28-70 zoom will easily fit in the pocket of many jackets, or just put it around your neck and zip your jacket around it. Canons are much larger when you include the lenses.

For electronic cameras, use two sets of lithium batteries and keep one set in the camera and one set in a pocket close to your skin. If one set freezes, just switch batteries.

If you want to spend more $$$ go with a Leica M series and a couple lenses.

I have never had a camera die due to cold (I give up first) and while I have heard stories, I have never broken film or had static buildup in the film (when you get your pictures back you see little lightning strikes all through the film) despite shooting with a motor drive a 8 fps down to about -15F ambient temperture. I have not had any weather related problems with digital at any temps that I have been brave enough to shoot in. Perhaps I'm just a wuss.

Before you go inside, put your camera in a sealed ziplock bag or zipped up camera bag and let it warm up slowly to avoid condensation. I've heard people say to keep film warm to keep it from becoming brittle and I have heard the opposite. I tend to keep it in an outside jacket pocket for easy access.

If you are looking for a camera bag, there are several good options to look at, all designed for stuptid people like me who bring cameras along when we really shouldn't. The Burton Zoom pack is good, the Dakine F5 and Dakine Sequence are the current hot offerings.

I personally don't use any filters unless I expect projectiles to be flying at my lens.

As for snowbanks, I have always found them to be a particularly convenient place to put cameras when changing film or when I need to put it down for some reason. If I'm shooting a ski race I have a big lens on. They get heavy and if you think I'm going to hold 12 lb. of camera all day when I have nice, soft snow to set the camera in, you're crazy. Remember, there is essentially no moisture in the snow we get. If I was shooting in the Sierra's or in wet sloppy snow I might reconsider.

Try this, take a tissue or paper towel and set it in some snow and see how much moisture it actually absorbs. Then remember that your camera is made of metal or plastic.

As for video, perhaps Kristian will jump in as he shoots more than I do, but generally same rules apply.

Bottom line, don't worry about.

[blupaddler]

What's all this talk about snow? What is this snow stuff you keep mentioning? It intrigues me very much.

The white substance in the pictures, I assume this is the "snow" you are talking about. Please keep posting more pictures, this is all very interesting. Would one also wear a jacket and pants in this snow environment? Could someone post up where to find such items?



It is very difficult here in San Diego (70 today). Temperatures rarely dip below 50.



;) :p

[Accrete]

I know this is an old thread.... i just found myself reading some on a rainy day in Oregon : )

Sean, in his post above (#9) had some insights that struck a nice chord in me while reading. I've had some similar "those don't belong here" kind of remarks on bike rides due in part to my crazy bike/trike designs (http://accrete.com/p-tgl/hpv/index.htm). It continues to amaze me at how low some people's tolerance levels are when they come in contact to those of a different feather.

Live and let live is a nice way to look at life. It's too short to sweat the small stuff.

Happy trails,...no matter how you "ride" them...
http://accrete.com/p-tgl/hpv/bike2nf.jpg
Thom

[Schattenjager]

Oh Dave, my two-board riding, thread swerving good man..... I assure you I am not offended by you granola eating, hippy backcountry skiing types at all! :wavey:

...

But like you said Dave, "I'm sure my outlook is limited by the negative experiences I've had." ;)

:jumping: Genius. We are witness to genius folks. :jumping:

Just saw this - I love to sled - Did the Tok / Dawson trip a couple of times up north. Gotta have em in Alaska - winter is just toooo long to wait for the 4 wheeler!