ruffled feathers

[SeaRubi]

I apologize to the group here for ruffling everybody's feathers. I said as much to Don in his thread so I didn't feel I needed to fling more around over there.

If you knew me in person you'd know I'm not the most diplomatic person you'd ever met. Something about spending a significant portion of childhood in Texas guaranteed that, I suppose. I'm a crazy, ornery, opinionated guy and will be the first to run a cable or drive back somewhere in the middle of the night for a can of fuel or a part if that's what's needed to get somebody back home.

What i don't have is any tolerance for people who spend 30k on their rig's drivetrain and then feel it gives them a right to belittle someone else for not having spent the same, and not being too excited about feeling like they need to make a similar financial commitment before they could return on a trip back out. I find that elitism is wheeling the same trail with my stock vehicle, even if I had to pull cable once or twice.

Everybody gets home on my watch, always, regardless of what they showed up with to run and without attitude, or making them feel underprepared because they bit off more than they could chew. That's how folks learn and direct experience is the best teacher. Unfortunately, to me, I don't see that same sentiment in a significant percentage of the jeep community, and I don't take trips with most jeep clubs for precisely this reason. A good portion seem more interested in impressing each other with the parts list on their rigs than being on a trip and that's fine. It's just not for me.

A group of folks who tend to look up to one another will, after a time, all want what the other has and they don't. I reserve my right to call an orange an orange and an apple an apple. I maintain that you don't need a rock crawler style machine to take "expedition" style trips. They are two different creatures. An overland style rig is more focused on having the necessary systems in place for survival - sanitation, cooking, shelter, navigation, communications, and a base level of comfort - an even wider concept open to interpretation!

It's not about the investment I have an issue with - who knows how much I've spent on this as a hobby and on how many different trucks. It's just the attitude that you need a monster drivetrain in your rig to hit the dirt that irritates me, personally, and I'm sorry to let it get under my skin and take it out on Don's build thread.

Back to your drinks :coffeedrink:

cheers
-isaac

[Scott Brady]

I maintain that you don't need a rock crawler style machine to take "expedition" style trips.
cheers
-isaac

And you Sir, are 100% correct.

Give me a Jeep Patriot with a fridge and roof tent, and a year off of work with enough money for fuel and misc., and I would take that any day over a Unicat in the driveway... Period.

Are you show or go - that is the question ;)

And there is nothing wrong with having an awesome built truck, and even not using it, but respect the fact that others might choose a different horse. How boring would it be if we all had TJ Rubicons with 33s. Spice it up!:roost:

[BigAl]

And you Sir, are 100% correct.

Give me a Jeep Patriot with a fridge and roof tent, and a year off of work with enough money for fuel and misc., and I would take that any day over a Unicat in the driveway... Period.



Take money out of the equation, if you could travel the world carefree for 1 year, the Patriot and the Unicat are both fueled and loaded in the driveway. You can only take one. Which?

Arguments that "stock is better" have the exact same ring to me as "built is better" No need to rain on anybodies parade, which is what ruined the other thread and started this one.

[ntsqd]

Will an RTT fit on a 2CV?

[Martyn]

Will an RTT fit on a 2CV?

mais naturellement mon petit chou

[kcowyo]

What i don't have is any tolerance for people who spend 30k on their rig's drivetrain and then feel it gives them a right to belittle someone else for not having spent the same, and not being too excited about feeling like they need to make a similar financial commitment before they could return on a trip back out.

I don't see that same sentiment in a significant percentage of the jeep community, and I don't take trips with most jeep clubs for precisely this reason. A good portion seem more interested in impressing each other with the parts list on their rigs than being on a trip and that's fine. It's just not for me.

I was reading that thread last night as the bantering went back & forth. While it seemed a little out of place in his build thread, I am in complete agreement with what you have written here this morning and I have experienced some of that prejudice myself, locally.

We have a little 4x4 club here in town. One of the head honchos, who I like personally, but he's a bit of a windbag, took time off one day from patting himself on the back long enough to espouse his unsolicited opinion on my tire selection. After inviting me on a trail run with them, he looked at my '85 Toyota pickup and said,

"Those BFG KO's suck. You'll never get anywhere with those. You should get some Toyo MT's."

Then he hopped in his sunshiney yellow, superbuilt Unlimited and drove off.

Needless to say, his brash tactics fell flat with me. With no knowledge of the type of trips I take, which go beyond the county line and the once a year pilgrimage to the Easter Jeep Safari like his own travels, he felt perfectly justified making such ludicrous statements to me. He's one who feels there is only one way to build a trail vehicle and anything less is subpar.

It says a lot more about him, than what he drives. I think his arrogance and choice of vehicle (on 35" tires) are merely a coincidence. And yet two years later, every time I see him, he still asks me, "When are you going to come out on a run with us?"

....Uh, as soon as there is enough room on the trail for me and my truck and you and your ego, Dave.... :rolleyes:

[robert j. yates]

It's just the attitude that you need a monster drivetrain in your rig to hit the dirt that irritates me, personally, and I'm sorry to let it get under my skin and take it out on Don's build thread.



The biggest issue I have with your posts are that you don't know the person and started right in on him on your soapbox before anyone else got a word in edgewise.

I've met Don once at the Off Road Expo and we have talked over the past several years on various forums....his plan is quite logical and somewhat similar to mine. I used to rockcrawl extensively and my rig was re-oriented from that to an expedition rig. I was not about to lose money on a previous investment same as him so frankly, in some areas it is way way overbuilt. That doesn't make he or I for that matter, wrong. Maybe you were just plain jealous?

[durango_60]

I'll pipe in and say that I agree that your rant seemed out of line. The guy just stated his intentions and didn't belittle anyone with a less built rig in any way that I could see. Perhaps you've got some pent up frustration from some other jack@$$ jeep owner that has given you grief in the past.

I do agree with your statements and generalities of the jeep community, but give the guy some breathing room as he is trying to reform his ways...

If you are truly bent on stirring up crap with people who have a penchant for overbuilding a rig it would be more amusing to me if you would give Scott Brady a little grief:ylsmoke:

[JeepinBear]

I think his arrogance and choice of vehicle (on 35" tires) are merely a coincidence. :clapsmile

Whew...that was a close one. I resemble that remark as I drive a "sunshiney yellow overbuilt Jeep TJ Unlimited on 35" tires" and I'd hate to think someone would judge me by that and equate it with arrogance :confused:

Me...I'm a firm believer in everyone has the rig that is right for him (or her...sorry ladies, or it...sorry its)

I'm not a dyed in the wool Jeep fanatic. I drove a Ford fullsize before the Jeep and a Nissan before it. The Jeep just works for me right now. I've posted other threads about numeous other vehicles I am interested in too.

I think I am probably one of the guys who was accused of getting my feathers "ruffled" on the other thread. Not really my feelings though.

I too think the "stock is better than built" or "built is better than stock" arguments are a bunch of hooey...it's a matter of personal preference. To each his own.

P.s. I don't think SeaRubi owes any apologies...as I mentioned on the thread, it appeared everything was working itself out. They were each throwing in some nice comments to try and bring it back to a more civil level.

[JeepinBear]

mais naturellement mon petit chou

trop de culture pour ce forum mon petit aubergine:p

[computeruser]

I guess it all comes down to what you're aiming to do!

My argument in favor of maintaining as much stock stuff as possible has always been one of resupply, not inherent superiority of OEM stuff. After driving an MG when I was younger, I got tired of having to mail order all my parts, or having to drive across town to the one import parts store in the Detroit metro area every time I needed some common service item. The ability to pull into (or limp or walk) any Jeep dealership and walk out with the parts I need in a pinch is very appealing to me. Same with a scrap yard or whatever else. Custom and aftermarket parts, though nifty, require additional planning. This may or may not be an issue, depending on the goals of your vehicle and travels.

Now I come at this all from the position of a being a dreamer - I dream about having the time and funds to go explore interesting places with my vehicle. As it is, its primary function is to get me to/from work. So my philosophy is very much just that - a philosophy, based on thought and theory. But it feels like sound logic to me.

As for the thread being referenced, here's my take:

1. I don't know what the true intended use of the vehicle is, and whether large tires and super-stout axles are physically required. But...
2. The guy already owns the axles, may already be intimately familiar with their workings and needs, and would likely lose his @$$ selling them, so why not reuse them?


In general, I would like to see more emphasis on the use and less on the equipment being used. Now, I completely understand that we focus on the equipment because that is something we can do at work, at home, in the car, with friends, and when reading catalogs while sitting on the can. Actually using the equipment, that necessarily occurs less frequently for most of us.

I also believe that if more of us focused on getting the best service and longevity out of the OEM crap we have already, rather than convincing ourselves that we can't leave the pavement with our Jeeps until we've spent another $5-10k on upgrades, we'd all be happier. I know I would. As someone with minimal true 'wheeling experience, I know that the constant refrain that my OEM parts are going to break and leave me stranded has played on my mind. This (hopefully) isn't true, but I know it has prevented me from having the guts to go out and try exploring places and attending events that would probably have been a blast to have done and that my vehicle would probably have been perfectly capable of handling.

At the end of the day it seems like the aftermarket and the 4x4 magazines are the only ones who really benefit from this fixation on upgrades...

[kcowyo]

:clapsmile

Whew...that was a close one. I resemble that remark as I drive a "sunshiney yellow overbuilt Jeep TJ on 35" tires" and I'd hate to think someone would judge me by that and equate it with arrogance :confused:



My initial suspicions were confirmed when he traded in his yellow Unlimited, for a white JK. And now you can hear him boast about how his JK is superior in all ways to his previous Unlimited. He's just a blowhard when it comes to his Jeeps, otherwise he's a nice guy.

But it's that type of arrogance that gets me. He would talk your ear off for an hour about how great his Unlimited was. But the minute the JK hit the lots, it was instantly worlds better than the Unlimited. :rolleyes:

And just for the record Bear, I won't judge you as arrogant based on what you drive. I'll wait till we meet on a trail or at a campfire before making my full assessment. ;)

[JeepinBear]

At the end of the day it seems like the aftermarket and the 4x4 magazines are the only ones who really benefit from this fixation on upgrades...

Ah, but then we are discounting the benefit of the consumer who experiences the joy of planning, researching, purchasing (ok...maybe not so much), fabricating, installing, and using said upgrades. That is the illogical and intangible side of this life we choose.
:victory:

[JeepinBear]

And just for the record Bear, I won't judge you as arrogant based on what you drive. I'll wait till we meet on a trail or at a campfire before making my full assessment. ;)

Ditto my brutha! :)

[computeruser]

Ah, but then we are discounting the benefit of the consumer who experiences the joy of planning, researching, purchasing (ok...maybe not so much), fabricating, installing, and using said upgrades. That is the illogical and intangible side of this life we choose.
:victory:


Without a doubt. But doesn't it get excessive at some point?

I know I spend hours on this site every day here at work, buying things and envisioning changes and "upgrades" that I "need to make," and have yet to get a proper camping weekend in all year? Seems somewhat out of balance.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and go back to enjoying my newfound "life is about experiences, not about things" mindset...

[Scott Brady]

Take money out of the equation, if you could travel the world carefree for 1 year, the Patriot and the Unicat are both fueled and loaded in the driveway. You can only take one. Which?

Arguments that "stock is better" have the exact same ring to me as "built is better" No need to rain on anybodies parade, which is what ruined the other thread and started this one.

certainly. Neither are better if they remain unused. I do find that far more stock and lightly modified vehicles are actually used, while most heavily modified and expensive vehicle remain in the driveway. I expect there are many dynamics that contribute to that, but it likely comes down to priority and interest. Do you want the toys or the experiences? No doubt some can afford the time and funds to do both.

[ntsqd]

mais naturellement mon petit chou
cabbage?

trop de culture pour ce forum mon petit aubergine:p
Troppo tempo su babelfish appena di calcolare fuori che cosa tutto state dicendo :)


KC said it better than I ever could. Though he seems to have run into the stereotype of a "4x4 driver."
Wish that I had a 2CV. Well, no, not really. But it would be fun........

[Chris]

To each his own, :violent-smiley-031:

Now can we just go EXPLORE.


:peepwall:

[robert j. yates]

certainly. Neither are better if they remain unused. I do find that far more stock and lightly modified vehicles are actually used, while most heavily modified and expensive vehicle remain in the driveway. I expect there are many dynamics that contribute to that, but it likely comes down to priority and interest. Do you want the toys or the experiences? No doubt some can afford the time and funds to do both.

When I first got my Jeep.....I had a ton of free time but not much money...something in the neighborhood of 9 weeks/yr paid time off on a single parent salary of $40K/year. I got real creative in both building my Jeep, buying parts for it and getting it out on the trails.

Fast forward 10 years to the present time which includes a change in employment, 5 less weeks a year in paid time off, more money but more job responsibility, a kid in college and a new wife. That pretty much results in a very capable Jeep that spends far to much time in the garage than it should.

Buying the AT Horizon did cure some of that however as my wife is more ameniable to going out with me now that she isn't sleeping in the dirt LOL......which brings me to an interesting point........if folks want to argue about built vs not built Jeeps or what have you, then they should be equally argumentative about using a trailer, Sportsmobile or Earthromer vs a tent to camp with.

To me...the entire discussion is pointless due to personal situations. As for what started all of this off.....I see no problem what so ever in somebody recycling high dollar equipment off a rockcrawler and swapping it onto an expediationary rig....even if they only get out once or twice a year.

[Martyn]

cabbage?

Troppo tempo su babelfish appena di calcolare fuori che cosa tutto state dicendo :)


KC said it better than I ever could. Though he seems to have run into the stereotype of a "4x4 driver."
Wish that I had a 2CV. Well, no, not really. But it would be fun........

petit chou -- little cabbage-- term of endearment

[ntsqd]

petit chou -- little cabbage-- term of endearment
Ah!
:) :) :)

[ExpoMike]

To each his own, :violent-smiley-031:

Now can we just go EXPLORE.


:peepwall:

:iagree: :lurk: :beer:

[77blazerchalet]

..the attitude that you need a monster drivetrain in your rig to hit the dirt that irritates me, personally,..
I figured those comments in the other thread weren't going to be well received. Good of you to explain it here, and I can identify in some way with what's behind it. Multiple years ago when I arrived at the parking area at the end of the navigable road to the east portal of the Alpine Tunnel (http://www.coloradoghosttowns.com/alpine-tunnel.htm) in my 3 inch ground clearance VW GTI, I got more than one dirty look from the AWD Subaru & lifted 4x4 crowd parked there. What an eerie feeling, it wasn't such a bad road other than the detour around the old one lane RR bridge, and I knew what I was doing considering the road condition.

At least those folks were getting off the paved road, I really have to laugh at the efforts & bragging of the chrome plated monster 4x4s that never go off-pavement. Assuming I go with a small-ish SUV after I sell my Chalet, a nearly stock one will suit my purposes. Other guys may arrive at Pougkeepsie Gulch (http://www.4x4now.com/trcopg.htm) with the same-but-much-modded vehicle as mine, I'll just park at the bottom and watch them crawl up, and I'll have to follow them on my future Rokon 2x2 motorcycle. To each his own, I'm a cheapskate and might save myself some money and still accomplish nearly the same overall thrill ride.

[Backwoods Rambler]

I figured those comments in the other thread weren't going to be well received. Good of you to explain it here, and I can identify in some way with what's behind it. Multiple years ago when I arrived at the parking area at the end of the navigable road to the east portal of the Alpine Tunnel (http://www.coloradoghosttowns.com/alpine-tunnel.htm) in my 3 inch ground clearance VW GTI, I got more than one dirty look from the AWD Subaru & lifted 4x4 crowd parked there. What an eerie feeling, it wasn't such a bad road other than the detour around the old one lane RR bridge, and I knew what I was doing considering the road condition.

At least those folks were getting off the paved road, I really have to laugh at the efforts & bragging of the chrome plated monster 4x4s that never go off-pavement. Assuming I go with a small-ish SUV after I sell my Chalet, a nearly stock one will suit my purposes. Other guys may arrive at Pougkeepsie Gulch (http://www.4x4now.com/trcopg.htm) with the same-but-much-modded vehicle as mine, I'll just park at the bottom and watch them crawl up, and I'll have to follow them on my future Rokon 2x2 motorcycle. To each his own, I'm a cheapskate and might save myself some money and still accomplish nearly the same overall thrill ride.

Man, it must take you quite a bit of time to type your posts with all of those links you always have in them. I love reading your posts though, if for nothing else, the reference material. Happy trails :smiley_drive:

[77blazerchalet]

..love reading your posts though, if for nothing else, the reference material... Wow, gosh, thanks! Been blessed with time ('til i start my business), good English skills, fast fingers and a photographic memory. Post #35 here (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=178892&highlight=alpine#post178892) for a view of my car on the west side of the Alpine Tunnel, didn't make it up to the aforementioned east side 'til 2001. The west side road road is a lot rockier this year, didn't make it beyond the water tank (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oramagazine.com/archive/2004/08-august/images/0205-feat-4wd-adnturs-04-n.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oramagazine.com/archive/2004/08-august/0205-feat-4wd-adnturs.asp&h=175&w=200&sz=4&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=qVoRsGAZfYWkdM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAlpine%2Btunnel%2Bwater%2Btank%26um%3 D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN), thus the need for a real SUV.

[Clark White]

Usually I don't encounter too much discrimination in my truck, but when I was at Uwharrie NF and drove most all of the trails there. I found a couple trails that ere difficult, but nothing that I would consider extreme, or as hard as I expected. I pulled into a gas station, and saw a nice, well built JK pulling out, so I flagged the guy down and asked him where I could find some hard trails (made no mention that I had already ran some). With his wife and kids along, he looked my truck up and down, looked me up and down, looked my truck up and down again, and said "your not going to try any of these trails in THAT are you?" I didn't know what to say, I was too shocked. I was in a good mood, having just ran some good trails, spent a couple hours evacuating a woman who had been thrown down a mountain by her horse, and wasn't going to let anything damper my mood. Light heartedly said I could keep up with him, he laughed and told me where to go, and I thanked him. I we pulled away, I could see him shaking his head at me. When I pulled out the map, the trails he said were the hardest (the ones I couldn't run in THAT rig), were the ones I had just ran and thought were too easy....:xxrotflma

By the same token, when I got my first Jeep CJ7, I would go along with, and often lead, some of the local Jeep group trips. I would be constantly told my "stock" (said with a sneer) Jeep would never make it. I even had them tell me that the trip I was going to lead couldn't POSSIBLY be a 3.5/4 (out of 5) trail because I could do it in a stock Jeep. Well just for the record, I always made it, and on that trip, many people with modified vehicles turned back because they were told it would be a 2.5 trail being lead by a stock Jeep. And yes, I got blamed for it being a 4, not a 2.5, even though the club President edited my e-mail to sat 2.5 instead of 4.0.

[Big Daddy Chia]

Man thanks for making me go back and read all that stuff. Now my 2 cents. I first started wheeling in 2001 when I bought mny brand new Xterra. I did a little work to it got it where I needed it as to be a off roader and daily driver. Problem was it seemed every trip I would go on, there would be quiet a few people who didnt think I could hang with them. My Xterra wasnt made for offroading. IFS sucked. You know all the usual bull**** from Jeep and older toyota owners. But I really didnt care what they thought. I like my Xterra and I wheeled with them anyway. And usually by the end of the day there attitudes had changed. Now I own a jeep and an Xterra. But becasue I own a cherokee I am still looked down upon by the "hardcore offroaders". I joined a local jeep club in Austin and pretty much did not renew my membership after the first year becasue of the attitude I got from not owning a wrangle of some type. The BNguy led me to this site and now I see more and more cool dual sport type vehicles that I would rather build up my XJ to do some rock crawling as well as back country wheeling. So in conclusion as a wise man named Rodney King once said. Cant we all just get a long.

[Hilldweller]

There's even snobbery within the Wrangler community; Jeep-waves are often witheld for various reasons such as:
Sahara is inferior to Rubicon
JK is inferior to all previous models
Stock is inferior to built
White is a "girl's color"

And don't get me started about the snobbery against my buddy's FJ Cruiser. We were on a trail and came up on a built TJ that was trying to figure out what to do next. He pointed to Steve's FJC and said, "there's big rocks up there (waving up the trail); that thing (indicating the 'Yota) ain't gunna make it --- you mightn't either (indicating my stock JK Sahara)."
Well, we passed him and he never did catch up.

I'll never dis a man's wife, dog, or choice of ride. I will make fun of your clothes and musical taste though.

[madizell]

As a venue for discussions, the Internet is by far the most abused and abusable created yet. We all tend to say things we would not say if we were face to face, and there is no secondary information to go on, such as body language (the little emoticons try to do this, but they fall short of the real thing). Bottom line -- ruffled feathers are the soup of the day.

You will always find folks who think they have the answers and you don't, or that their rig is the perfect example of off-road transportation which, by definition then, would make your example inferior. Such folks lack experience and perspective. If they truly had the experience and perspective from which to judge others, they would admit that stock and lightly modified vehicles often do as well as or better than highly modified vehicles, all depending on driver skills, terrain, and chance. I have sunk in more than one bog only to be passed and subsequently rescued by stock TJ's on 33" Mud Kings. Life is like that. When you meet someone whose attitudes are as you describe, just smile. You can't educate a pig.

Trail ratings are entirely subjective, and frequently mean very little if the trail in question is subject to change over time from overuse or weather conditions. Even on a stable trail, weather discounted, what constitutes a 3 for one guy could look a lot like a 5 to another, and even after 37 years of driving off road, I still look at rocky, steep climbs and think "no way" then drive right up them with mo more modification and 32" tires and a rear locker in an otherwise stock 40 year old Jeep. Point here is that trail ratings can fool you and they should only be taken with salt, as a guideline to preparations and expectations. Then, too, what looks difficult to me in the 40 year old CJ5 looks boring when I drive the CJ-7. As there is really no standard per se for rating trails, I suggest no one should get lost in the smoke over them. Go drive the trail, then you will know what you think of it.

I used to drive the CJ-7 in essentially stock form. 31x10.5x15 BFG MT tires, open diffs, 2.5L four cylinder gerbil power, and the lightest 4-speed known to man. No winch, no self-recovery gear on board, tow points that, today, would be embarrassing to me because of the shoddy execution, and a carburetor from hell. With this rig, and with wife and puppy on board, in a group of only 4 other vehicles manned by folks I had never met before, we crossed the Talkeetna Mountains on an 8 mile long trail that, up to that point in 1997, had never been done by street legal vehicles in summer time. It was generally considered to be impassable beyond the top of the first hill climb. We constantly did things that day that the trail guide thought we, in our Jeeps, could not do (she was driving a tundra buggy and thought little Jeeps were, well, just little Jeeps). We kept going and going until finally no one thought it so strange that we were still with the group. Everyone got stuck somewhere (far more than once). Everyone got the chance to cross some place that someone else didn't. I crossed with ease an evil mud hole that the tundra buggy sunk in and had to be rescued. The trail in question was rated off the chart for difficulty. We made it anyway. At some point, every modification on each vehicle had value, or got in the way. There is no such thing as a perfectly modified (or perfectly engineered) vehicle. Those who believe that because of the state of build of their vehicle they are necessarily superior to others, especially if they think they are superior to all others, are simply mistaken in their beliefs. But so are all fanatics.

At the end of the day, the state of modification of the vehicle is less important than the skill of the person driving it. Take whatever you drive and drive it until you know all of its limits and all of your own limits, and you will not only then know whether you need to modify something on your vehicle and why, but you will also be a better driver than the guys that think you have to have X size tires or whatever to conquer a trail.

Why can't we all just get along? Because we are all different. Always have been, always will be.

[ntsqd]

If you want to experience snobbery, try showing up on a crawl trail with a one wheel drive dune buggy. The vets know better, it's the nuuB's that have to be taught.

If all that you've ever seen go up a trail are hard core rigs, then only hard core rigs can make it, right?

[SeaRubi]

wow - 3 pages of replies! Good stuff - I'll toss on a few more ramblings and then shuddup.

* diversity may be the spice of life, but adversity makes it worth living. I would not, in a million years, take back any one experience of a trail repair or extended recovery, or more importantly, the bond of friendship between the folks involved in working towards a common goal to surmount adversity.

* manufacturers "build" automobiles. There are some notable exceptions, but what we do primarily as amateurs and hobbyists is to bolt on expensive parts and continually make second guesses citing terms like "wisdom" in reference to engineering problems. Endeavor to take upon yourself alone the work of a factory and countless people and we each come to understand these differences on our own terms.

* What we spend money on for function always has its roots in vanity and aesthetics. These properties ultimately equate to pride. Woe to he who vows to strip and remove all chrome and shiny surface for he is the fiercest believer in his own vanity.

* There is no criticism, regardless of delivery, that will not test a man's commitment to pride at the cost of sincerity. The results of this test gives us an insight into their true character. Remember that we're all human and that character, by virtue of being ideologically pure, is in itself a flawed concept.

* Our psyches are much more highly tuned to take notice of the slightest bit of malice in disagreement. There is a reason for this. Disagreement without passion presents no danger of being discussed.

* Ask anyone about their choices and you'll get a long list of reasons that matter mostly only to them. A person that doesn't respect the choice of others holds no respect for his own. A man with a short list of reasons for anything is also a dangerous man.

* I think it's better to speak your mind honestly and enjoy the fireworks :ylsmoke: If I am being an *** I try to point it out. I accept who I am and I don't plan to change much.

* yes(!), Brady "for teh win" in terms of conspicuous spending :exclaim: :xxrotflma

beers for everybody - and see you on the dirt. :truck:

[Hilldweller]

Nice. :iagree:

Man; I thought I could talk pretty.

[kellymoe]

Boy, I thought Land Rover owners were the only ones who were this passionate:)

[FROADER]

I apologize to the group here for ruffling everybody's feathers. I said as much to Don in his thread so I didn't feel I needed to fling more around over there.
I'm not as active on this site as I am others, but I was truly bummed to read your reply to his original post. As others have said, this site usually stays away from the "My dad can beat up your dad" mentality. I come from a mix of desert running, rock crawling and expedition off-road backgrounds and here is my take on the poop, that was your post. Besides the fact that it was the first reply of a thread I was looking forward to reading, it also took away from his build thread. There is now 2 pages of BS and only the first post has anything to do with the topic. I don't think you would like to have started a 'build' thread of your stock truck and have the first reply be someone saying "Hey guess what, you're an a-hole." for no reason. Just sayin'...

This was the original post.


Into an expedition vehicle for long tips of several months and still be able to run Moab trails. Albeit I looked hard at the JK's I decided to stay in the TJ line for several reasons. Existing components such as Dynatrac ProRock HP 60's F/R that would have to be heavliy modifided to fit a JK. Same goes for many other parts that are currently on my '03 Jeep Rubicon.

Sat I flew to Denver and picked up a box stock Jeep Rubicon Unlimited and then swung by Moab on the way home to Scottsdale.

[Note: In its OEM box stock form it will run Moab Rim and Behind the rocks trails. Pics on the website of Moab Rim trail, below]

It all begins here: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/conversion_build_jeep_rubic/

I will post over the ensuing months progress reports...
The part that bothered me in your reply:

Instead of all that time, money, and effort spent on modifying a rig to kingdom come - why not take 1/4 of that pool and take more trips? Sorry to rant - it jus seems like so many folks want to get a truck just for the sake of carving it up. The things do just fine bone stock. Pull the top, fill 'er up and beat it like a red headed stepchild.
__________________________________________________ ______________


It's not about the investment I have an issue with - who knows how much I've spent on this as a hobby and on how many different trucks. It's just the attitude that you need a monster drivetrain in your rig to hit the dirt that irritates me, personally, and I'm sorry to let it get under my skin and take it out on Don's build thread.
It's great that you apologize, but had you really read and understood his post, this all could have been avoided IMO. He had existing parts that would bolt up to his new rig. Plain and simple.

These parts happen to come from a purpose built rig that enabled him to go places, conquer obstacles, not break and make it home safely afterwards. If he has these parts and they can be easily swapped to his current rig, should it matter that he wants to use them for expedition type wheeling now? I don't think so. It shouldn't matter if he wanted to use a '62 VW Karmanghia as an expedition rig, it's his build.



(Mods/Admin) For the readers that are interested in his [Don's] build (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17966), could we get his original post to be pasted as a new thread (or the old one cleaned up), so there isn't all of that BS in it.

[madizell]

SeaRubi -

Sounds like you spend a lot of time reading Bartlett's.

I have to disagree with some of your statements, at least to the degree that they are offered as absolutes. For example:

"* What we spend money on for function always has its roots in vanity and aesthetics. These properties ultimately equate to pride. Woe to he who vows to strip and remove all chrome and shiny surface for he is the fiercest believer in his own vanity."

This may be true for you, and may be true in your experience, but is not a true statement as an absolute. It is, rather, a glittering generality if not complete nonsense. The value of a glittering generality is generally in the glitter. It sounds pretty, but isn't necessarily true. Modifications are made for all kinds of reasons. When I put a rag top on my old Jeep it is not because I fear people will laugh at me if I don't, but because I don't want to get wet when it rains, and don't want the dogs to jump out of the car when they go for a ride. Where is the vanity in that?

Another example:

"...what we do primarily as amateurs and hobbyists is to bolt on expensive parts and continually make second guesses citing terms like "wisdom" in reference to engineering problems."

Again, perhaps true for you, but not universally true. Many of "us hobbyists" make our own parts, modify those we have, or do our best with the parts that came on the car. Also, automotive design and theory is something you can learn in school, or as Abe Lincoln did it, learn it yourself by doing a lot of reading and studying. Professionals do not hold all the cards. Manufacturers do not always share the same design paradigm with enthusiasts, making it necessary for us to redesign our rides. As enthusiasts, we build to our own standards, using our own money and skills, and using the same principles and theories that professional engineers use, but without the constraints of marketing and cost analysis attendant to mass automobile manufacturing. Doing so does not make an idiot out of the enthusiast, nor does it debase the "wisdom" of the enthusiast's choices that he is not an engineering professional or that he has different ideas of how something should be executed. Your use of the work "we" in describing "amateurs and hobbyists" is, I fear, too broad.

There is one thing you say that I do agree with:

"A person that doesn't respect the choice of others holds no respect for his own."

Wasn't it your own intolerance for one person's choices that started this whole discussion? Why not put it to rest? Even though this string begins as an apology, it is nevertheless a defensive one. Anyway, I think the whole line of discussion belongs under general chat, not Jeep-specific modifications.

[Martyn]

Bartlett's has some great quotes on ego.

[Brian McVickers]

Boy, I thought Land Rover owners were the only ones who were this passionate:)

HEY, What did you just say about my Land Rover!
Watchit Fella.... :)

:sombrero: :safari-rig:

[SeaRubi]

I have to say - there's alot more drama here than I really counted on :lurk: It's just a cheap bet, but I'd venture to say we're all pretty bored at work or home and this is more exciting.



SeaRubi -
Sounds like you spend a lot of time reading Bartlett's.


Who's Bartlett? never heard of 'em. What's Bartlett written that you'd like to share?



"* What we spend money on for function always has its roots in vanity and aesthetics. These properties ultimately equate to pride. Woe to he who vows to strip and remove all chrome and shiny surface for he is the fiercest believer in his own vanity."

This may be true for you, and may be true in your experience, but is not a true statement as an absolute. It is, rather, a glittering generality if not complete nonsense. The value of a glittering generality is generally in the glitter. It sounds pretty, but isn't necessarily true.


I offer "ramblings" and you equate that to absolutes. ?? I will defend this position, however. People can argue until they are blue in the face that they're the most logical person on the planet, and would never consider doing anything without a careful analysis of all the pros and cons of each requirement for what they want to do.

I say baloney. And the more passionate the argument, the more baloney it is.



Another example:

"...what we do primarily as amateurs and hobbyists is to bolt on expensive parts and continually make second guesses citing terms like "wisdom" in reference to engineering problems."

Again, perhaps true for you, but not universally true. Many of "us hobbyists" make our own parts, modify those we have, or do our best with the parts that came on the car. Also, automotive design and theory is something you can learn in school, or as Abe Lincoln did it, learn it yourself by doing a lot of reading and studying. Professionals do not hold all the cards.



Do you get paid to modify or prepare other people's cars? do you retail parts of your own design? Or entire cars? If not, you're clearly an amateur or a hobbyist. You might *think* you follow a similar process, and you might *think* you're designing a part. Did you just incite Abe Lincoln? Why do all the factory trained mechanics I know detest working on a hobby rig?



Manufacturers do not always share the same design paradigm with enthusiasts, making it necessary for us to redesign our rides. As enthusiasts, we build to our own standards, using our own money and skills,...


Agree.


and using the same principles and theories that professional engineers use, but without the constraints of marketing and cost analysis attendant to mass automobile manufacturing.


BS - pure and simple. That's even more arrogant than something I'd write :ylsmoke: I have several friends who are professional engineers and are also automotive enthusiasts. They're usually the first to point out to me that their discipline doesn't have much to do with designing car parts. Just trying to curb a bunch of backlash about regression analysis and pretty CAD pictures.




There is one thing you say that I do agree with:

"A person that doesn't respect the choice of others holds no respect for his own."

Wasn't it your own intolerance for one person's choices that started this whole discussion? "


Yep. Hey, I pointed out my flaws. I really, really miss my Rangie and all the other freaks, geeks, and drama queens that call themselves an LRO, proud to own one of the beasts :smiley_drive: The more I own a Jeep the more I realize I have less in common with most Jeep drivers. Seems like such a stupid statement ... but it's becoming reality!



Even though this string begins as an apology, it is nevertheless a defensive one. Anyway, I think the whole line of discussion belongs under general chat, not Jeep-specific modifications.

The thread was for the jeepers here on the board that had their feathers ruffled in the other thread, not the unsuspecting victims in Fireside. I made 3 posts in Don's thread, total; there's an awful lot of "bs" in there that ain't mine, fer sure. I kept seeing replies after mine and tried to curb it with the 3rd post, which didn't seem to help, so I created this one to bleed it off of Don's.


How many people in that thread felt empowered to vindicate Don's own reply, after he made it, from the position of their own sense of judicial duty? Some of you guys are a bunch of drama queens. Let's give each other a break and settle this over more e-pints, mmmK? :beer: :beer:

[goodtimes]

:coffee:

[robert j. yates]

How many people in that thread felt empowered to vindicate Don's own reply, after he made it, from the position of their own sense of judicial duty? Some of you guys are a bunch of drama queens. Let's give each other a break and settle this over more e-pints, mmmK? :beer: :beer:

You just keep stirring the pot while claiming "why can't we all get along"
........to funny :D

[SeaRubi]

"The part that bothered me in your reply:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaRubi
Instead of all that time, money, and effort spent on modifying a rig to kingdom come - why not take 1/4 of that pool and take more trips? Sorry to rant - it just seems like so many folks want to get a truck just for the sake of carving it up. The things do just fine bone stock. Pull the top, fill 'er up and beat it like a red headed stepchild.
"

What's wrong with that? Are we all here just to pat each other on the back and make each other feel good? Who cares what I think. I expressed a couple of opinions for Don's sake and let my irritation with the big-tire / rescue / rubi axles are weak comments of his get the better of me.

D44 axles on 35's work pretty well ... or I was hallucinating those trips I took out with my friend in his '05. There's a whole bunch of stuff that's relative - I think most folks are smart enough to realize that.

:beer:

[MuddyMudskipper]

I'll toss on a few more ramblings and then shuddup.

Liar, liar pants on fire. :hehe: :hehe:

[robert j. yates]

You apparently don't see the math....he already owns the axles which cost him a significant chunk of change (go ahead, call Dynatrack and see what a matching set of ProRock 60's cost). Given the market for used parts, he would receive just a fraction of that investment back if he were to sell them. What part of "not financially prudent" do you not get about selling the axles?

Also.....given that the axles are already set up for a TJ, I hardly think "carving up a rig" as you put it is an accurant description.....or even applies. I suspect that they are about as bolt on as you can get given Dynatracks proven quality.

Personally, I think you have absolutely no experience in dealing with aftermarket parts of this magnitude and have been summarily pants'd here by some of the more knowledgable folks and are thus, just a wee bit to defensive.

I agree with Froader....your posts out to be scrapped out of the original thread. You might also want to stop trying to get the last word in ;)

[Superu]

:smilies27 The only thing missing from this whole drama is a few expletives to make it perfect for the usual suspects over at NASIOC!

I'm heading back to read up on some trip reports! :wavey:

[JeepinBear]

You apparently don't see the math....he already owns the axles which cost him a significant chunk of change (go ahead, call Dynatrack and see what a matching set of ProRock 60's cost). Given the market for used parts, he would receive just a fraction of that investment back if he were to sell them. What part of "not financially prudent" do you not get about selling the axles?



Ah...come on guys. He's a smart guy, he gets it.

He's admitted at least a couple of times that he "likes giving people a hard time". I think at this point he's getting off on the drama he's created and is enjoying watching the reply and view counts climb.


Add 1 more to his list.

[robert j. yates]

I think at this point he's getting off on the drama he's created

:iagree: