Conversion & build of Jeep Unlimited Rubicon

[SavageSunJeep]

Into an expedition vehicle for long tips of several months and still be able to run Moab trails. Albeit I looked hard at the JK's I decided to stay in the TJ line for several reasons. Existing components such as Dynatrac ProRock HP 60's F/R that would have to be heavliy modifided to fit a JK. Same goes for many other parts that are currently on my '03 Jeep Rubicon.

Sat I flew to Denver and picked up a box stock Jeep Rubicon Unlimited and then swung by Moab on the way home to Scottsdale.

[Note: In its OEM box stock form it will run Moab Rim and Behind the rocks trails. Pics on the website of Moab Rim trail, below]

It all begins here: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/conversion_build_jeep_rubic/

I will post over the ensuing months progress reports...

[SeaRubi]

Disclaimer: America is a great land of excess for excess' sake and we'd like to keep it that way. God 'n country and all that, I now pose this question:


You just busted Moab in the thing bone stock. You say you want to do longer expedition style trips and Moab. Why on earth do you need Dana 60's? Is it to run 35's or larger? How is dropping your fuel mileage from 15.x mpg to like 9mpg going to assist in your goal of having an expedition style rig?

I don't get why so many folks want to modify these trucks to such an extreme for "expedition" use. In the US of A, expedition means alot of highway miles in between dirt miles. some 33's and an OME lift and you're all set. Hell you really don't need that. I never once disconnected the swaybars on mine. Just loaded it up and went.

Instead of all that time, money, and effort spent on modifying a rig to kingdom come - why not take 1/4 of that pool and take more trips? Sorry to rant - it jus seems like so many folks want to get a truck just for the sake of carving it up. The things do just fine bone stock. Pull the top, fill 'er up and beat it like a red headed stepchild.

Mine was an '06

http://www.speakeasy.org/~thefains/img/jeep/jeep_rocks.jpeg

http://www.speakeasy.org/~thefains/img/reiter/reiter_isaac.jpg

[JeepinBear]

Good buy! But of course I am partial to the model!

I'll be interested in watching your progress.

[SavageSunJeep]

Disclaimer: America is a great land of excess for excess' sake and we'd like to keep it that way. God 'n country and all that, I now pose this question:


You just busted Moab in the thing bone stock. You say you want to do longer expedition style trips and Moab. Why on earth do you need Dana 60's? Is it to run 35's or larger? How is dropping your fuel mileage from 15.x mpg to like 9mpg going to assist in your goal of having an expedition style rig?

I don't get why so many folks want to modify these trucks to such an extreme for "expedition" use. In the US of A, expedition means alot of highway miles in between dirt miles. some 33's and an OME lift and you're all set. Hell you really don't need that. I never once disconnected the swaybars on mine. Just loaded it up and went.

Instead of all that time, money, and effort spent on modifying a rig to kingdom come - why not take 1/4 of that pool and take more trips? Sorry to rant - it jus seems like so many folks want to get a truck just for the sake of carving it up. The things do just fine bone stock. Pull the top, fill 'er up and beat it like a red headed stepchild.

Mine was an '06
While I will not argue you point as its certainly valid, I just happen to have a full set of Dynatrac ProRocks setting under my existing Jeep Rubicon Rock Crawler. While it may be worth a tad more with the Dynatracs in there not enough to make it worth the while to pass them on for near free to somebody else.

The D44 axles in the pre-'07 Rubicons are just plain weak if you want to go beyond a 33" tire.

Add to the fact that we are talking a direct bolt/unbolt swap and my ole Rubicon is still worth about as much.

In addition, expedition travel is really about building for the long haul and trust me the Dynatrac D 60 setup is LONG HAUL. Plus they are HP both F/R and this provides additional clearance for the Rubicon trail and several other trails I am planning on running.

Yep, gonna run 35's soon as my 37's wear out and then are less than 6 mo old, so not gonna give them away either. And they are mounted on a full 5 set of Walker Evans 17" bead lock wheels. Again, no reason to give them away especially when tires and wheels are such a personal choice. The buyer will get the OEM MTRs and 16" Rubicon wheels which they can seel and buy new as they see fit.

I could on, but they might spoil some of the fun for you the reader if so inclined.

I suspect that there are a lot of rock crawlers out there like me who built a good rock crawling Jeep. And the thought of just selling it with all those parts on it, many of which can be used in building for expedition type trails and driving. I can assure you that from a rock crawlers view a expedition is anything longer than a day and then its back home.

For me, I am really getting back to my early days of my 40+ year Jeeping career. Staying out for days or weeks on end. I am planning on some extensive travel and demanding trips and my goal is just like it says on my website: "Built to get you there, Engineered to get you back"

In viewing you pics crossing the river, which was not very deep by the looks of it. Were it deeper than you thought or the current too fast I suspect you would have thanked me when I rushed out to rescue you and Your Jeep in a raging river on my 37" tires and 5 inch of lift. Check out the pics and you will note that the water is nearly to my windows in this rescue:

http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/trips_trip_reports/river_of_no_return.html

Thank you for your comments...

[SeaRubi]

So, all those fellas here that are out for weeks on end in stock Tacomas and Nissan Frontiers ... they don't have any jeeps on 37's around to rescue them, and they seem to do fine.

The point I suppose, is this: the folks around here aren't rock crawlers. I think alot of us ditched most Jeep forums because of the bigger is better attitude, and went looking for a place where we could talk about lame stuff like where to wire in an extra fuse block to hook up an Engel and what OME springs would work best for the weight they're going to be carrying on the rack. Not to hear why we couldn't leave the driveway with smaller than 35" tires. For what most people on this forum do, 30~32" tires are more than enough.

It seems like every week / month that rolls by, more and more people come onto the jeep board and try to "woo" everyone with big axles and big tires and claim they're "building" an "expedition" vehicle.

Well, there are tons of folks on here in nearly bone stock rigs taking lots of "expeditions", by your definition, and they're doing it without $8000 worth of Dynatrac axle to power their rig.

I've spent enough time waiting on Jeeps with 35's or bigger and 6" (not 5) of lift to get up obstacles I could make because they didn't have any traction, even aired down to nearly nothing. 14" of tread width is worthless on a SWB rig and a snotty climb. Or they were too afraid of rolling on a sidehill and had to take some crazy bypass loop, or not be able to follow at all. Or I had to just close my eyes and hope for the best because they refused to tie off a B-pillar and take a crossing slow and just went "gonzo" for it, allowing their wife to hang out the uphill size as counterbalance (true story on Short 'n Dirty, except it was an FJ40 on 39's). Or just plain ol' broke because there was too much wizardry going on with their suspension.

In short, I remain unimpressed! You seem to be missing the spirit of the forum. but hey! It's a free country :beer: and it's your dough. In the meantime, I'll be wheeling somewhere in a stock rig with highway tires and not worrying about how cool I look on the internets :peepwall: Good luck with the new Rubi - hope it treats you well and you enjoy it as you see fit!

cheers
-isaac

[efuentes]

How about keeping the D44s, fill them with some nice cromo stuff, and some Q78 swampers on stock rims?

Bias tires, dual lockers, nice wheel base and a dependable straight six, sounds like a nice, durable expo rig to me.

Saludos.

PS wish I could get an LJ jeep down here ....

[goodtimes]

It all depends on where you want to go. I certainly would not put the 60's under the LJ...but hey, maybe he is planning on visiting places that I am not.

Just because a vehicle has axles that are overkill for the application does not mean it can't be used as an expedition vehicle. 37" tires? Sure....as long as I'm not the one paying for gas...

:beer:

lookin' forward to the build Don....

[Milehi explorer]

I have been on both sides with a built Rubicon on 35s and now a JK Unlimited Sahara on 32s to know that for me, smaller and closer to stock is where it is at; however, sounds like an excellent build with top quality components!

I am looking forward to seeing pictures.

[SavageSunJeep]

In short, I remain unimpressed! You seem to be missing the spirit of the forum.
-isaac
Issac,
You are unimpressed? Sorry, I had no idea I was on here to impress you or anyone far as that goes, but like you said I must be missing the 'spirit of the forum'.

In fact, if anyone on here is unimpressed then its me. Anyone that shows up and does not even bother to buy a winch deserves to be left high and dry or in some cases, low and wet. In fact I have almost worn out a winch line just jerking out pulls or is it pulling out jerks that think they can conquer any trail because they own _________ (fill in the blank).

Drive around because its too off camber, I can do better than 45 degrees off either side of my rig.

I am NOT claiming nor am I trying to 'woo' anyone, I am building it my way and building it as I chose. I post for those that desire to learn from my rights and my wrongs.

Having spent 40+ years behind the wheel of Jeeps and off roaded literally world wide I can assure you that I build to a standard and the bar is set very high...on purpose. I will venture where few will.

As has been said so many times: 'don't take a knife to a gun fight' so your efforts to convince me that stock rigs outperform built rigs falls on deaf ears.

As for the guy in the stock rig that I saved him and his rig in that raging river, less than 2 weeks later he had put on a winch and lifted his rig. He also purchased a decent set of tires to go along with that. Had he had a lift and or a good set of off road tires he may have well made it across that river. Or if he had had a winch I would have not needed to save him.


I would suggest to you that most stock rigs are woefully under built for anything beyond the other side of the curb at your local Sonic drive in.

You are welcome to watch and comment as the build progresses or you can poor mouth my 37's, Supercharger and Dynatrac D 60. But if you chose that option, please to take up too much posting space as there really are folks on here that want to learn and observe.

Interesting in that in nearly a 100 comments total on several other forums yours is the ONLY one that is negative. But, thank you anyway, I appreciate ALL comments, good, bad and ugly.

All, the conversion starts in ernst sometime in late Oct. I will be attending the Off Road Expo in Pomoma, Ca to see what is new on the 4x4 front and then begin placing my orders for components to install. I will write and shoot pics of everything I do and will try to provide a rationale for each.

This will be a fun and exciting undertaking and if any of you get out my way, Scottsdale, AZ you are welcome to stop by and looky-loo. I welcome all.

Cheers to all:beer::beer:

[SavageSunJeep]

How about keeping the D44s, fill them with some nice cromo stuff, and some Q78 swampers on stock rims?

Bias tires, dual lockers, nice wheel base and a dependable straight six, sounds like a nice, durable expo rig to me.

Saludos.

PS wish I could get an LJ jeep down here ....
Nothing wrong with that at all. But all I see is major cost and I still have D 44s under it. So why incur the costs when I already own D 60's?

Bear in mind I will also be pulling a fully loaded trailer along with my loaded Jeep.

I like my bead locks and I can remove the bead lock rim and gain access to the inside of the tire for a major repair.

Thank you

[SeaRubi]

Don, I do like to give people a hard time every once in awhile. I am sorry to come in and poo on your thread and put you on the defensive for your choices.

I don't buy the story you're sellin' here with the big talk but it's yours to spin. You're not the only one here that's accrued alot of wheel time ... I think most folks here on Expo are more experienced than the slew of younger folks that tend to gravitate to the dozens of other hormonally challenged Jeep boards across the net. That "little" rubicon of mine wore an XD9000 for most of it's life. You're not the only person that knows how to conduct a recovery, nor should make the mistake of assuming a "less built" rig means an uprepared driver. That in itself is highly insulting.

I don't see Expo like any other forum. I don't speak for everybody, just myself and my own self-centered reasons for reading up on the posts here instead of other forums. I'm sure you've got alot of investment and quality work into your vehicles and yes, plenty others here on this forum will be highly interested to watch your progress. I'll be alot more interested seeing you back on the dirt or on a trip than stuck in a garage bolting on more parts, but that's just me :peepwall: Good luck with it.

:beer:

[SinCityFJC]

Hi Don

Sounds like a good build up plan - been ages since I last wheeled with you, I was either in the Redneck Porsche
http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/40477/1346332913050172860S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1346332913050172860cNGSQP)

or the RubiScrambler
http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/35990/2141702920050172860S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2141702920050172860SOfrwe)

Cheers

aka SinCityRubicon

[1speed]

Awesome plan! I would love to put a set of Pro Rock D60's under my 05 LJ with 35's, whether anyone thinks I need them or not.;)

[BigAl]

In short, I remain unimpressed! You seem to be missing the spirit of the forum.
I think you may be missing the spirit of the forum. We ususally don't dump on other people or their vehicle choices. I personally like to see the heavy duty builds.

[JeepinBear]

Personally, I think the "spirit of the forum" is many-fold:

Those ExPo members who ask for comments or advice can typically have thick enough skin to listen to all sides without being defensive.
That being said, when people "put themselves out there" on the internet and make themselves vulnerable it can go horribly wrong on some forums. My experience with ExPo is that most people can articulate their criticism so that is comes across constructive instead of inflammatory. More like a brotherhood than a "my rig is beter than yours" or "my Dad can kick your Dad's butt" mentality.
More importantly, some on ExPo are not looking for advice, but to share their joy of building "their" idea of an expedition rig (there is no one right rig right?) with the hope that someone else may find their posts interesting or helpful.
Now, IMHO Don did NOT look for advice with the original post, I think he was more along the lines of #3.

There does seem to be some unnecessary bantering back and forth, but things appear to be working themsleves out, like they usually do on ExPo...kudos to the philosophy behind this forum!!

Sure a healty debate can make us all stronger (jeez, I sound like Hannity), but it sure seems to me that to stay on a level commensurate with this forums earned "prestige" (for lack of a better word) makes us even stronger and keeps us from becoming just like all the others.

My $.02.

[Brian McVickers]

Issac,
I am building it my way and building it as I chose. I post for those that desire to learn from my rights and my wrongs.


I have been on this forum since near the beginning and I must say that what Don is doing IS the "Spirit of the Forum" however the "Spirit of the Forum" is not complete without our respect and support, including constructive criticism of his project. ExPo is a place for us to all learn from one another by sharing experiences, knowledge and information.

The community here drives everything from mountain bikes to bone stock toyota mini-pickups to Unicats. Our vehicles are as unique as we are, there is no absolute best choice.

Also, if I understand what I have read, Don us using parts that he already has to build his new rig, which is resourceful.

Perhaps we let Don continue his thread and share the buildup of his new rig in peace. The generalized debate of rig choices and design can be continued in another more appropriate thread.

Regards,
Brian

[SinCityFJC]

Don is being green by recycling parts from old old rig to his new one:clapsmile

Having watched his last buildup that many learned from I look forward to watching this buildup

[durango_60]

Looking forward to your build. I'd rather see a guy with more axle than he needs than more tire than his stock axles can handle any day of the week.

[SavageSunJeep]

Hi Don

Sounds like a good build up plan - been ages since I last wheeled with you, I was either in the Redneck Porsche
http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/40477/1346332913050172860S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1346332913050172860cNGSQP)

or the RubiScrambler
http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/35990/2141702920050172860S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2141702920050172860SOfrwe)

Cheers

aka SinCityRubicon I remember and you had the Redneck Porsche;) You doggie you, glad you are still around. We will hook up again for sure.

On the subject of the conversion, what I am seeing a lot of in the Jeeping community is members transitioning to expedition type of off roading. I have only got around to posting this on a few forums and the positive response have been overwhelming to include a slew of PM's/e mails wanting more info...of course I have only been at this since Sat so right now I am in the 'needs assement' stage and determining what does my finished product need to look like (not visual).

I cannot discount that the lure of quality rock challenges that will always be there. But that has for me become more of a Pritchet Canyon etc in Moab rather than 'Joe Bob's rock pile', up off dead end hwy somewhere.

I also hear often that the reason why a lot of folks got into OR was to do things with the family, see things that are further back than one can hike too and of course see the beauty that can often only be seen from a distant vantage point so often only assesable via 4x4.

Or as someone said: "your roots are showing" The roots of 4x4 are indeed just getting out there and enjoying.

I did like the 'green/recycling' comment. I never thought of it that way. But good thinking. Yes I spent even more $ than my wife knows on my rock crawler and its not just a bunch of stuff I saw on somebody's rig at Sonic and I went and bought. I engineered this Jeep and its performance and reliability speak for itself. Its a DD that is about to turn over 80k miles and I drive it to wheel it and I drive it back home.

This gives me a good base of knowledge to work from and a parts bin at my fingertips.

I saw myself with several options to transition myself to this side of OR:

1) Order up a JK and start from scratch

-1) No exp with the JK architecture, vertical learning curve

2) Work with existing platform ['03 TJ Rubicon]

-2) Need frame stretch with new tub or tub stretch, 80k mi on engine and components. Need various component upgrades and replacements to get it ready for long hauls and miles to get there, think Baja, ALCAN Hwy to Arctic Circle trips. All = $$$ to attain goal.

3) Buy bone stock '06 TJ Rubicon Unlimited, low mileage, exchange parts as determined buy new as needed, sell the '03 TJ Rubion.

-3) Highest intial cost, much work needs to be done and engine bay components are approaching half-way point in life cycle.

+3) Found Jeep that meets requirements and only 14.5k miles, CARFAXED OK, only 1 minor warranty call for drivers seat. At least half of intial outlay is recouped upon selling current rig. My shop is equipped with most tools, HD welder and plasma cutter etc etc, I am retired and wife likes to keep me in the shop and out of her hair and current Jeep is 98% built to my specs, so not much to do.

After MUCH thinking and discussing with wife she fully agreed that 3 is the best choice as she will come along on several of the trips.

That took me to Denver last Sat, then a few days in Moab to see how the bone stocker worked, now assesing needs, Off Road Expo in Pomoma on Oct and begin.

Anyone here going to the Expo? I will arrive Thurs nite and leave out Sat afternoon and always up for a cup 'o joe with new and old friends...:coffeedrink:

[SinCityFJC]

Hi Don

Thought you would like the being a green jeeper & recycling parts off the rock crawler;)

Like you said I and others are focusing more on expo style wheeling - I've done most of the hard core trails that I had dreamed of.

New build sounds well thought out from decades of wheeling, The LJ based RubiScrambler build was more expo focused & a great well balanced trail/street rig, a function 1st build that happened to look good.

[robert j. yates]

Anyone here going to the Expo? I will arrive Thurs nite and leave out Sat afternoon and always up for a cup 'o joe with new and old friends...:coffeedrink:

I'll be at Expo again Don. If you still have my number, ping me and we can meet up somewhere along the way.

[TD64]

Don,

I saw your post on ROF (http://www.rubiconownersforum.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=59718) this morning and then I stumble across this... Well, I am looking forward to watching your build... how YOU want to build it!

The Rubicons are amazing stock and built! I've rolled with ROF (in my friends rig) a couple of times in Moab and I was amazed at what these rigs can do.

I just scored an 06 Unlimited Rubicon (4,000 miles and never off-road) and I'll be keeping an eye on this build.

Folks, keep in mind that some trails (Kane Creek (http://www.4x4now.com/mtkcc.htm)) are somewhat easy and then you hit a section like this:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj103/td64_photos/Expo/moab_050206/kane_creek.jpg

and you blow a fuse:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj103/td64_photos/Expo/moab_050206/chaser17.jpg

[Backwoods Rambler]

Folks, keep in mind that some trails (Kane Creek (http://www.4x4now.com/mtkcc.htm)) are somewhat easy and then you hit a section like this:.........and you blow a fuse.......[/IMG]

I keep coming back to this thread and wishing I had some constructive input to offer and your post hit the spot!

I think that was the best point to be brought up in this thread. And it's the reason that I'm building my XJ (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17932) the way I am. Not stock, but not a monster either; I'm finding that happy middle ground for myself. And if I had a set of D60's (or whatever) from a previous build that would fit, hell yeah I'd keep 'em, even it it was overkill for my 33's. But I won't go buy a set of D60's though.......

Im my "neck of the woods" there are too many mild trails with one or two really hairy spots, that you'd be silly not to build for the rocks just a little bit. I hate traveling down what looks like a mild road, just to hit a pile of rocks and have to turn around (that happened to me twice before I got my lift). I guess maybe, I just like to take the road even less traveled .......probably due to difficulty in that one spot.

So, I say lets all build our vehicles in a manner that suits our needs (be they real, or potential) and leave all of the rig bashing to the other Jeep forums.

SeaRubi - thanks for going easy on me for posting my build-up thread ...........kidding..... ;)

[SavageSunJeep]

I'll be at Expo again Don. If you still have my number, ping me and we can meet up somewhere along the way.
Nope, I just did a firmware upgrade on my fone and in spite of saving my fone # list to my sim card it erased EVERYTHING.

Shoot me a PM with your # on it. I have to leave out Sat due to obli's Sunday back here in Scottsdale. I am coming in Thurs nite. Be good to see you again.

[SavageSunJeep]

I keep coming back to this thread and wishing I had some constructive input to offer and your post hit the spot!

I think that was the best point to be brought up in this thread. And it's the reason that I'm building my XJ (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17932) the way I am. Not stock, but not a monster either; I'm finding that happy middle ground for myself. And if I had a set of D60's (or whatever) from a previous build that would fit, hell yeah I'd keep 'em, even it it was overkill for my 33's. But I won't go buy a set of D60's though.......

Im my "neck of the woods" there are too many mild trails with one or two really hairy spots, that you'd be silly not to build for the rocks just a little bit. I hate traveling down what looks like a mild road, just to hit a pile of rocks and have to turn around (that happened to me twice before I got my lift). I guess maybe, I just like to take the road even less traveled .......probably due to difficulty in that one spot.

So, I say lets all build our vehicles in a manner that suits our needs (be they real, or potential) and leave all of the rig bashing to the other Jeep forums.

SeaRubi - thanks for going easy on me for posting my build-up thread ...........kidding..... ;)

Nuttin wrong with Kane Creek. Couple of years ago the wife and I headed up to Moab for a Moab Thanksgiving and it started snowing while we were in Kane Creek. It snowed about 6" as I remember and albeit we continued to hit the trails, it did keep us off HellDorado. The snow was just too DEEP and we could not even find the trail.

This past weekend while in Moab I saw a few Jeeps on the streets but nary a one on the trails!!!!

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

Welcome and I look forward to your build. I too came over from the world of hardcore rock crawling. I haven't missed it (Much) and look forward to your build.

I see nothing wrong with your D60's. The ProRock is an excellent choice. I almost pulled the trigger on a set for my 04 Unlimited. Here's a pic of it before I sold it. I do miss the Unlimited a lot of times. I replaced it with a Landcruiser that has been nicknamed "Gang Green" if that tells you how well we get along.

I bought it new and had it for about a week before it went under the knife for three months and came out looking like this. I went with the Chromo 33 splined Evolution axles from Superior. I was so serious about the ProRocks that I even changed the lug to 5x5.5 so the Walkers would fit the new axles.

I think your on the right track. There's nothing wrong with a HD axle with parts availability that far outreach the jeep world.


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/ruffian05/Picture108.jpg

[JeepinBear]

Here's a pic of it before I sold it.

Hijack alert!

Did you ever post a build thread of this jeep? I really like the custom cage work.

Hijack off!

[SavageSunJeep]

Welcome and I look forward to your build. I too came over from the world of hardcore rock crawling. I haven't missed it (Much) and look forward to your build.

I see nothing wrong with your D60's. The ProRock is an excellent choice. I almost pulled the trigger on a set for my 04 Unlimited. Here's a pic of it before I sold it. I do miss the Unlimited a lot of times. I replaced it with a Landcruiser that has been nicknamed "Gang Green" if that tells you how well we get along.

I bought it new and had it for about a week before it went under the knife for three months and came out looking like this. I went with the Chromo 33 splined Evolution axles from Superior. I was so serious about the ProRocks that I even changed the lug to 5x5.5 so the Walkers would fit the new axles.

I think your on the right track. There's nothing wrong with a HD axle with parts availability that far outreach the jeep world.


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/ruffian05/Picture108.jpg WOW, that is tarted up real nice. Yes, I plan on keeping my WE's too, pull the BL and you now have access to the inside of the tire for a repair if need be. If worse comes to worse the BL will hold the tire on as you stagger on 0 psi trying to get to civilization.

I do think that coming from the RC world is an asset to building a expedition rig. The RC world, clearly at the level you and I have experienced is a world of Chromo and 300M steel that still breaks (300M steel is what they build landing gear on airplanes).

But I can assure all that it is just not bolting on the biggest and strongest parts you can find and then hit the trails. Those that do often fail even tho they did not break...the object is to get to the top, some folks forget that.

Its the combination of parts that counts. I run OEM grade u joints in my drive shafts and there is a reason for it.

As my tag line sez on my website: 'Built to get you there, Engineered to get you back!'

On another note, I wonder if I have not seen your rig...I NOTICE yellow as it is a fav color for cars. Moab perhaps, Vegas around time of the SEMA show maybe. Regardless, its sweet.

[efuentes]

I have also been to RC hell and back, and mostly what I have learned is that a rig has to be balanced, want big tires?, that's ok, just bring along axles, suspension components and HP to the picture.

Here in Mexico I see unbalanced rigs that get stuck all the time, you know the type, big tires with tiny axles or the familiar 44s with unimogs axles and a puny 100 HP to carry the 10,000 pound rig. :rolleyes:

Expedition stuff in my opinion is all about durability, fixability and economy, In my neck of the woods its usually 33s with Locked D44s, a TBI chevy drivetrain (That everybody knows how to fix) and a nice stiff chassis with leafs all around.


Saludos

[SavageSunJeep]

I have also been to RC hell and back, and mostly what I have learned is that a rig has to be balanced, want big tires?, that's ok, just bring along axles, suspension components and HP to the picture.

Here in Mexico I see unbalanced rigs that get stuck all the time, you know the type, big tires with tiny axles or the familiar 44s with unimogs axles and a puny 100 HP to carry the 10,000 pound rig. :rolleyes:

Expedition stuff in my opinion is all about durability, fixability and economy, In my neck of the woods its usually 33s with Locked D44s, a TBI chevy drivetrain (That everybody knows how to fix) and a nice stiff chassis with leafs all around.


Saludos
Shhhhh, your giving away my secret. My rig is +/- 25 lbs in weight on all 4 corners, sure helps off camber.

OEM u joints in the drive shafts. 15 min trail fix when they break, cheap and act as a fuse for excess torque loading. NOTE: I have never broke one.

[madizell]

Given the choice between D44's and D60's, both sitting there at hand, I would use the D60's also, but maybe that's just me. I know how I drive and how I like to drive. I currently have two Jeeps with radically different build states. The '68 CJ-5 has a D44 rear with tapered, 2-piece axles and a Lock-Rite, and D27's in the front with open diffs. The Buick V-6 makes a great deal of torque for so light a vehicle, and on difficult trails, this car has to be driven carefully to avoid breakage. It will still get me there and back, and will cover some tough terrain, but nevertheless it has to be driven with vehicle limits in mind. I have to alter my acquired driving style to protect both myself and my vehicle in difficult terrain. Most of the time I don't mind. There are times when I would like to drive harder, but can't due to vehicle limits.

The CJ-7 on the other hand has Currie Ford 9's, 31 spline axles, ARB's and so on, one-ton drive shafts, and a '91 Mustang 5.0L HO with aluminum top end, JBA headers, and a long list of other refinements. It, too, makes a great deal of torque, but is built such that I can, when I want to, beat on it without fear of instant breakage. It was built for that purpose. Is it overbuilt for expo. Sure, but what of it. That's not all it does.

Both cars will go similar places. How I get there and the amount of fun I want to have getting there differs between the two. If I had only one car and needed it to do whatever I wanted it to do, mild to wild, I would build toward the higher standard mostly because I don't like fixing things on the trail, and I know how I like to drive.

I find nothing wrong with choosing to build to a higher standard of break resistance for expo use or any other. Whether it is necessary to do so depends on personal perspective. Here, we are talking about an experienced driver who knows his own style and has many years behind the wheel on which to base his judgments of himself and his needs in a vehicle. None of us need to second guess those needs or the decision making process behind the choices made.

Personally, I have never believed that the D44 is a heavy duty axle. Even Dana Corp does not think so. The D44 is a light to medium duty axle assembly depending on which parts go into it. It can, with sufficient money, be beefed up, but will never achieve the strength of the D60, and there is just no way to compare any D44 with a purpose built D60. Are they overkill in an expo vehicle? If you drive forest roads exclusively, always drive with conservative groups, do the camping thing exclusively, never overload, and never challenge your vehicle, perhaps they would be overkill. But Moab and similar trails are not exactly expo territory. Such trails lean toward hard core off-roading. They can be done with a stock vehicle, but the challenge is entirely different. Since the builder intends to do BOTH expo and hard trails, I fully understand the desire to use the heavier axles. I would, too. The fact that I could get a stock vehicle over Moab is neither here nor there. What I can do and what I want to regularly do might be different things.

But start with the very first post if you will. It was stated up front that the D60's were already on hand, and that their investment cost could not be recovered if sold. If you have never bought or sold custom axles, it might not be apparent, but such axles cost $4k give or take, but if sold used, will only get you $1K or perhaps $2K in return. Who would want to sell a pair of axles for $2K that originally cost $8K, and then turn around and spend a few thousand more to make the D44's do the job at hand. Arguments about overbuilding aside, I would see the choice as one of protecting an investment if nothing else.

[robert j. yates]

But start with the very first post if you will. It was stated up front that the D60's were already on hand, and that their investment cost could not be recovered if sold. If you have never bought or sold custom axles, it might not be apparent, but such axles cost $4k give or take, but if sold used, will only get you $1K or perhaps $2K in return. Who would want to sell a pair of axles for $2K that originally cost $8K, and then turn around and spend a few thousand more to make the D44's do the job at hand. Arguments about overbuilding aside, I would see the choice as one of protecting an investment if nothing else.

Thats it in a nutshell right there.

[Oman4x4]

Definitely a smart move transferring the axles into the new vehicle...


What are your suspension plans this time around? After moving up to 35" tires I've really decided that I've got no desire to be any higher... Maybe 36-37" rubber in the future if I replace my axle shafts and truss my housings.

The Highline Body kit is a brilliant way of getting those big tires under the Jeep and keeping its highway manners. 3" springs, SwayLoc, Bilstein shocks makes for a great all-purpose Jeep.

Not to hijack your thread, there's plenty of Highline photos on my www.oman4x4.com/gallery

[SavageSunJeep]

For those of you who know already this will not come as a surprise. 1) I do apply a lot of thought to what I do and buy and like the good software engineer I am I always apply the first rule of IT engineering...WHAT happens next? If you do X then what happens to Y(s) 2) I also like to experiment so I am apt to try things that are a bit off the wall and bleeding edge.

I have considered the Highline hood and even a good friend that has it installed, looks good and is even practical, truly a form follows function idea but in spite of that I just cannot justify that much $.

Suspension: Today I picked up 4 brand new never rolled OEM Rubicon springs from a 4 door JK. I am going to try them [see # 2 above].

Shocks: Rancho RS9000X the new bigger ones

Control arms: Still sorting on this but I am a real JKS fan and a staunch short arm advocate. Since I will not go beyond a 3 -3.5 suspension lift I see no need for long arms. [For those that wonder why, you can go to my website and read my thoughts on this and other 'Jeep things' here: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/viewpoints-technical_discus/ ]

+1 inch MORE motor mount

Almost 2 inch Body lift

Fabbed Track Bar setup that will bring to an end TB induced oscillation better known as Death Wobble, read the install here: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/jeep_installs/jks_front_track_bar_install.html

I have already ordered the OEM 7 blade fan and HD clutch assembly, read the install here: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/jeep_installs/oem_7-blade_tj_fanclutch_in.html

As you can see some potential problems have been addressed in my last build.

More to come.

[nwoods]

Don, I apologize as I have not read the entire thread and all it's drama, but I'm curious why you started with a Rubicon? It appears that you are pulling most of the Ruby bits out?

I look forward to seeing what you do regarding taking advantage of the extra room in the LJ. I haven't quite decided how I'm going to build out my interior yet.

Regards,

Nathan

[SavageSunJeep]

Don, I apologize as I have not read the entire thread and all it's drama, but I'm curious why you started with a Rubicon? It appears that you are pulling most of the Ruby bits out?

I look forward to seeing what you do regarding taking advantage of the extra room in the LJ. I haven't quite decided how I'm going to build out my interior yet.

Regards,

Nathan
Nathan,
What I have is an '03 Rubi that I have had since Sep of '02 and I have now purchased an '06 Rubi. The makes everything I do a direct bolt to bolt, on.

In addition, since the '03 is going to be sold, and it is a Rubi, then installing any part in it (read axles) that are NOT Rubicon end items, DRASTICALLY reduces its value.

You have to remember that what I have in my '03 Rubi is a rock crawler, DD with 80k miles on it and never a breakage, never left it on the trail broke. I unlike so many of my rock crawling brethren would be humiliated and severely embarrassed if I broke on a trail run. And I am not talking 3 rated trails. My rig is a 4+++ trail rig. I have done Pritchet Canyon multiple times, twice in one day to rescue a broke Jeep and I have run it in both directions.

I did not build my Jeep to break down and not perform to a high standard.

Simple pride of ride translates into selling it as a honest rig. I will not short change anyone. I would be just as embarassed if some guy bought it and then a week or 6 mo later called me up and asked why it had a D30/D35 axle setup instead of the OEM D44's.

Or you can just say I am an old man with an outdated values and ethics. I will not be offended for I accept that I am truly a dinosaur in this day and age, my word is my bond and my handshake seals the deal.

The extra room in the new Jeep...wife, 4 dogs, what more can I say.

Wife and I took a 2 month vacation in my '03 Jeep and we only had one dog then...that Jeep was crammed to the rollbar.

[nwoods]

Nathan,
What I have is an '03 Rubi that I have had since Sep of '02 and I have now purchased an '06 Rubi. The makes everything I do a direct bolt to bolt, on.

In addition, since the '03 is going to be sold, and it is a Rubi, then installing any part in it (read axles) that are NOT Rubicon end items, DRASTICALLY reduces its value.

That makes a lot of sense..and very environmentally friendly. It's a sustainability plan that I applaud :-)

[Jeep]

Go with the 60's! Why not make the diffs something you will most likely never look at with the exception of preventative maintenance. I moved from rock crawling and competitions back to trail running with the family, you know, where it all started, I enjoy it a lot more. I am just finishing my latest trail rig and I went a little overboard, it was intended to be pulled behind our more highway and family friendly expedition rig and used to explore the local scenery but it's a little overkill. I'll probably sell it off and build something a little more civilized, step down to a 37" tire or maybe even a 40" tire because the "No lift Wrangler on 40's" in JP magazine is really cool (I think it is) but I will definitely not step away from the 60's for axle choice! There is 1 ton of safety features that are far too important to ignore like 1 ton disc brakes, axle bearings, steering linkage, etc. I matched a 1 ton hydroboost up to my diffs and the braking is incredible even on 42" rubber. I personally would not want to try and stop a fully loaded (expo gear adds up) Jeep on 35's in an emergency situation with the factory brakes. I don't think the anti lock function would even come into it's parameters of operation! Sorry for the partial hi jack but I think there is a lot more validity to your decision than recognized.

Cheers,
Mark.

[SavageSunJeep]

You are dead on Mark. Its not really a question of overbuilding as some my think but rather (or at least from my frame of reference) its doing a required point of failure analysis (POF).

D60's are far from being just over built: My current '03 Rubicon in full battle gear for Moab level rock crawling will tip the scale beyond the 5k lb mark. Then I am pulling a trailer, Canadian military M101 w/35 gal of fuel/water plus gear. Gross weight is certainly heading toward 7k lbs. You make the call!

In a well structured POF analysis you identify the POF and then they are prioritized in order of most likely to least likely. Each rig will be different. On my rig it is: 1) u joints and 2) radiator at the top of my list.

That said how do we mitigate? I will tell anyone that chance failure occurs and does so at the 100% level. This then begs the question of do we over build for or gain control of it. I often prefer the latter and I do so by using OEM size u joints. To do anything else only moves the problem somewhere else, like your ring and pinor gears!!!

Given the choice of a trail side repair I my choice is cheap u joints vs R&P.

As I stated in an earlier post every action taken you must answer the question of 'what happens next'. Cheap u joints fail and 'CTM' u joints don't, they just transfer the opportunity for failure somewhere else.

Second in my POF analysis was my radiator. This is effected by two potential failures. Internal and external. I can do little about internal but I can mitigate external by installing a radiator roll bar(s). In my case I have 2, one is a loop around the top of the radiator and the other is commonly called a 'stinger'. The stinger serves 2 purposes: 1) protects the radiator in the event of a roll over and 2) prevents the Jeep from flipping forward on a steep ledge or waterfall and landing on its top. The stinger will push the Jeep to the left or right.

The bonus is that a stinger may also help prevent injury or even death.

The other external is from a tree limb getting jammed into the radiator and causing a leak. This is a simple fix. Find a stick of wood that is dry cut it down until it will fit firmly into the hole, fill radiator with water, let the stick swell and be on your way.

Does it work? Dad bought a ranch truck back in '55. It was a used '54 Chevy 1/2 T and on the way home it over heated. Dad discovered it had a leak in the radiator. We walked around and Dad found a dry stick. Carved it and installed it in the radiator. We filled it with water and headed home. From time to time it would begin to leak...time for another stick. Dad sold that truck in '75 and it still had a stick in the radiator.

[Photog]

Don,
I have always thought that the Point of Failure analysis is a good way to approach building a rig. Have you considered breaking traction before braking parts? It seems that if the parts were strong enough, the connection between the tire and ground would be the first thing to break. And that is a free fix.

With your new "Overland" vehicle approach, what tire are you going to use, that will have a stronger grip on the terrain, than the strength of the running gear? I'm not trying to be a smart mouth, I'm sure you have thought this through, and I am interested in those thoughts. With your tire of choice, what terrain will you be in that could break a R&P before breaking traction?

[robert j. yates]

Don,
I have always thought that the Point of Failure analysis is a good way to approach building a rig. Have you considered breaking traction before braking parts? It seems that if the parts were strong enough, the connection between the tire and ground would be the first thing to break. And that is a free fix.

With your new "Overland" vehicle approach, what tire are you going to use, that will have a stronger grip on the terrain, than the strength of the running gear? I'm not trying to be a smart mouth, I'm sure you have thought this through, and I am interested in those thoughts. With your tire of choice, what terrain will you be in that could break a R&P before breaking traction?


The problem with breaking traction occurs when traction is re-gained.

[SavageSunJeep]

Don,
I have always thought that the Point of Failure analysis is a good way to approach building a rig. Have you considered breaking traction before braking parts? It seems that if the parts were strong enough, the connection between the tire and ground would be the first thing to break. And that is a free fix.

With your new "Overland" vehicle approach, what tire are you going to use, that will have a stronger grip on the terrain, than the strength of the running gear? I'm not trying to be a smart mouth, I'm sure you have thought this through, and I am interested in those thoughts. With your tire of choice, what terrain will you be in that could break a R&P before breaking traction?
While it sounds good, the problem is lack of control over the process. It will or will not break traction when it decides, not me.

That said the other down side is that often you don't break traction. Many expo rigs be it Jeeps or Toyota's run f/r lockers. on 3 occasions that come to mind I had my front lockers on and: 1) Moab, Utah my right front tire fell into a hole in the rock and it picked the Jeep up off the ground, 2) Texas, while driving alongside of a large hill my right front tire fell into a wash-out, this picked up the Jeep and flipped it over on its lid, 3) Hearst Ranch in Ca, while riding in a jeep across a valley the right front wheel of the jeep fell into a prairie dog hole, its picked up the jeep and laid it on its side.

Take said Jeep with its 5k lb travel weight and attach a trailer then you stand a fair change to break off a few teeth on the R&P if the right front gets jammed.

Same thing or worse can happen if you get in a bind while going thru a narrow rock walled passage.

As you can see, be it rock, sandy loam or black dirt all can flip a Jeep and if you don't flip, something gonna give...if the u joints are strong enough, what happens next, drive shaft could twist, gear(s) break on R&P, axle shaft breaks. Buy cheap OEM u joints and in 15 min you are back rolling again while your buddy with the CTM u joints is trying to figure out how he is gonna get a new ring gear and get it installed 100 miles from nowhere.

Tires: I have run the Goodyear MTRs, 7 sets on various Jeeps and trucks for many years, they work fine and are tough. I am currently runing on a new set of BFG KM2s and the traction is amazing, plus they are quieter on the highway.

Either one of these tires will grip tighter than than a one-armed trapzee artist.

Guys that have been around 4+++ trails and rock crawling can tell you, there is nothing on a rig that cannot be broken with a Jeep 6 cyl engine up front. There are plenty of guys running Dana 70 and 80 series axles. Those puppies have axle shafts as big as your thighs and u joints the size of pie plates. I run 35 spline shafts that are 1.5" in diameter. This is only about .25" larger in diameter than D44's.

Am I really OVER built or have I just increased my margin of success over failure for a respectable amount, yet not excessive.

[Photog]

Don,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I completely agree with the "Build it Stout" approach. Even more so, when you already have the parts from a previous build.

It makes sense, to have the U-Joints be the weakest point in the chain. I suspect your U-Joints are still more stout than the factory Jeep Rubi U-joints, and still the weak point?

I love those 2 door Unlimited's.

[SavageSunJeep]

Don,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I completely agree with the "Build it Stout" approach. Even more so, when you already have the parts from a previous build.

It makes sense, to have the U-Joints be the weakest point in the chain. I suspect your U-Joints are still more stout than the factory Jeep Rubi U-joints, and still the weak point?

I love those 2 door Unlimited's.

Brian,
Having been out for more years than I care to remember what I know to be a fact is that if I said 3 years from now we are heading N to the Arctic Circle; somebody would show up in a Jeep with no top, no heater and street tires.

In the military we call this the 10% factor. 10%, 100% of the time just don't get it/do get it.

Since I generally am involved in the conduct of an expedition in some way I build my Jeep so I can be in the 10% of the folks that show up prepared.

Cannot tell you how many times I have led trails and everyone knew in advance the trail and its level of difficulty and I still have folks show up in box stock rigs that often cannot get out of sight of the trail head before it falters and we have to leave them behind...

Or have them leave the parking area, we drive to the trail head and head out on an ALL DAY trail and 2 hrs into it they have to turn around and go back because they 'FORGOT' to fill up with gas.

[Jay S.]

D60's are far from being just over built: My current '03 Rubicon in full battle gear for Moab level rock crawling will tip the scale beyond the 5k lb mark. Then I am pulling a trailer, Canadian military M101 w/35 gal of fuel/water plus gear. Gross weight is certainly heading toward 7k lbs. You make the call!



So, let's see the trailer!!! C'mon....


:D

[SavageSunJeep]

So, let's see the trailer!!! C'mon....


:D

Ok, you asked for it. There are 4 pages of trailer, most of it is the build getting me to the point I am at. The good news is I do not have too far to go
in getting it where I want to be in the near term.

I am still thinking on the lid I want to put on and other mods.

But you can see my approach to this point: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/enter/jeep_installs/m101_military_jeep_trailer.html

[robert j. yates]

Buy cheap OEM u joints and in 15 min you are back rolling again while your buddy with the CTM u joints is trying to figure out how he is gonna get a new ring gear and get it installed 100 miles from nowhere.


I'm running Warn Chromo shafts with CTM's and using the Warn small hub kit as a fuse. I'm not to worried about my ring and pinion and I'd rather take 5 minutes to replace a hub than an hour to pull an axle shaft to get at and replace a $15 dollar u-joint.

[SavageSunJeep]

I'm running Warn Chromo shafts with CTM's and using the Warn small hub kit as a fuse. I'm not to worried about my ring and pinion and I'd rather take 5 minutes to replace a hub than an hour to pull an axle shaft to get at and replace a $15 dollar u-joint.
Sorry, I meant in my drive shafts not the axles. Should have made that clear.

[JJonesee]

I like it.

Build it how you want.

Just a question - is keeping them both as is an option?

[SavageSunJeep]

I like it.

Build it how you want.

Just a question - is keeping them both as is an option?
I suppose it could be, but mostly I am jammed for room. 2 car garage that is mostly full of tools n stuff.

I really don't do much rock crawling anymore other than Moab and places like that. But the run down to the local beat-your-jeep acres and hammer away is mostly gone. For no other reason other than it just lost the challenge and fun.

Somebody will want the ole Cowboy to crawl with. I am going to take off the f/r bumpers, supercharger, axles, tires and wheels and that is mostly it.